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Politics

Perhaps you should run

Obedience belongs to us. The results belong to the Lord.

*****

Every four years, for a brief season, nomination papers open and the question becomes concrete: who will step forward to govern our towns and cities?

Budgets and bylaws will be passed, libraries and parks funded, streets and neighborhoods planned, and public moral judgments made. Decisions will be made. The question is, by whom, and according to what vision of justice and the public good?

I write to suggest that some of you should step forward, and that those who do must let God’s Word govern the campaign and leave the result to the Lord. I write this while running for municipal council in my home city of Peterborough, Ontario. I do not write from the safety of hindsight. The campaign is underway, and whatever attention or pressure may come as election day approaches has not yet come. That is part of why I want to think clearly now.

I have said that I am not running despite being a Christian, but because I am a Christian. I believe public office is a responsibility before God and a trust from the people. That means honesty, stewardship, justice, neighbor-love, and service.
That confession must govern my campaign, my exercise of office if elected, and my response to the result if not.

Furthermore, that confession raises a more basic question. Is Christian faith merely a private motive a candidate brings into politics, or is civil office itself under Christ? The prevailing ideal of religious neutrality draws the line there: Christians may hold office, but they must not insist that God’s Word governs the office. Scripture and our confessions reject that division.

“I don’t have enough time”

Perhaps your first objection is your calendar.

You have a job, perhaps two. You have children. You serve as an elder or deacon, sit on a school board, help govern a Christian organization, teach Sunday school or catechism, care for aging parents, practice hospitality, and seek opportunities for evangelism. You already have more good work before you than hours in which to do it.

Those responsibilities may be why you should not run. But municipal elections generally come only every four years. The opportunity to stand is not permanently available, and for many of us a truly quiet calendar is not a few months away but decades away. If we wait until our responsibilities have thinned out and life finally feels manageable, the nomination period will have closed and someone else will have stepped forward. Scripture warns us against burying what has been entrusted to us, and it tells us that whoever knows the good he ought to do and fails to do it sins.

That does not mean every capable Christian is commanded to become a candidate. Capability is not identical to calling. But capability does create a responsibility to discern.

I ran as a federal candidate in 2021. I did not win. Campaigning did take time. Yet I learned that public service need not simply subtract from family life. At times it can be woven into it.

My family came with me to rallies, debates, and candidate events. They helped deliver literature. My oldest daughter baked cupcakes for the campaign. We traveled, talked, worked, and learned together.

Time itself is finite, but family life is not simply a ledger in which every hour spent in public service is an hour stolen from one’s children. A child who comes to a debate, helps deliver flyers, watches his father speak with an opponent, or prays for an election is not necessarily being deprived of family life. He may be receiving a memorable form of Christian instruction. The campaign became part of our life together. My children saw that public responsibility was not merely something their father discussed at the dinner table. It was something a Christian family could practice.

This must not be romanticized. A man who neglects his wife and children while claiming to save the country has misunderstood Christian service. A wife should not be steamrolled by political ambition, and children should not be treated as campaign props. Some families are in seasons when candidacy would plainly be irresponsible.

Still, “I have a family” or “I am already serving” should not always end the discussion.

When the cost became personal

After the 2021 federal election, the Peterborough Public Library began hosting “Drag Queen Story Time” events for children.

A friend and I organized two peaceful protests, one in September 2022 and another in January 2023. We said publicly that God made human beings male and female, that this created distinction is good, and that deliberately blurring it is harmful, particularly when children are involved.

In the days before, during, and after the second protest, the opposition became much more intense and personal.

Some people involved in the counter-protest found my employer through LinkedIn. They tweeted at the company, telephoned, and tried to have me fired.

That was wicked behavior.

I wish I could say that I met the pressure with calm confidence. I did not. When people began contacting my employer, the possible cost was no longer theoretical. I had a wife and nine children to provide for. I found myself thinking about what would happen if I lost my job and how I would continue caring for them.

I was afraid, and I am ashamed that I did not trust God’s fatherly care more readily. Thankfully, I did not withdraw what I had said or abandon the stand we had taken, and I discovered then that willingness in principle, and steadiness under pressure, are not quite the same thing. Courage is not the absence of fear. It is obedience while fear is still present.

In the end, I was not fired, although I was placed under pressure at work. That experience made me more active in seeking other employment. In time, an opportunity arose with ARPA Canada. The public advocacy that some people had tried to make a professional liability became an asset and part of the experience that fitted me for my present work.

There was other good as well. My friend and I were quoted in the local newspaper saying plainly that God made human beings male and female, and that this is good. My friend was later interviewed on national radio, where he had a further opportunity to speak about the issue. The truth about God’s created order went out more widely than it otherwise might have.

We did not persuade the library to stop hosting “Drag Queen Story Time,” so we did not achieve the immediate result we had sought. But silence did not have the last word.

God has not promised that every Christian who speaks publicly will keep his job or quickly receive a better one. Faithful Christians have lost employment, income, professional standing, friendships, and much more. But, as Lord’s Day 10 teaches, “all things, in fact, come to us not by chance but by his fatherly hand.” I can now identify several ways the Lord used that period for good. At the time, I could not see them. That is often the nature of obedience. We are called to obey before we are shown what the Lord intends to do with it.

An opportunity to speak plainly

Running for office can give you the opportunity to share truth with people you might never otherwise communicate with.

I am now in another campaign, and if attention increases as election day approaches, I expect some questions concerning my previous advocacy, and my Christian beliefs.

I welcome those questions.

If reporters, voters, or opponents ask me about abortion, transgender ideology, drag events directed at children, or my belief that Jesus Christ is Lord of public life, I hope to answer plainly. Public attention can bring pressure, but it can also widen the audience for truth. The concern is not that people may discover what I believe. The concern is whether, when pressed, I will speak with the clarity, charity, and confidence that those beliefs require.

Honest scrutiny is not persecution. A candidate asks the public to entrust him with authority. Voters and journalists are entitled to ask about his record, beliefs, judgment, and character. Some criticism may be true and necessary for me to hear. A difficult question is not an attack simply because I would have preferred an easier one.

There is, however, a subtler danger.

A candidate can begin responding to opposition before it arrives. He imagines the headline, the social-media campaign, the accusation of bigotry, or the votes that may be lost. Then he edits himself in advance. No one has ordered him to deny what he believes. He simply learns to say less and less of substance.

A Christian who had worked on many political campaigns once told me about a pro-life candidate who had spent years counseling women outside an abortion clinic. Her faith and concern for preborn children were central to why she was running, and the first draft of her brochure said so.

Then came a series of individually plausible revisions. The campaign did not want her to appear to be a one-issue candidate. Voters needed to learn more about her family and background. Some of the material about abortion no longer seemed to fit the brochure’s tone.

By about the tenth draft, the brochure described a brave and bold woman who would defend the oppressed, but it no longer told voters what she had spent years bravely doing. Nothing in the handout was an explicit lie. Yet the overall picture was no longer candid.

A campaign message must be selective. It may not be deceptive.

That is why the 9th Commandment matters so much. Prudence asks how, when, and where a relevant truth should be spoken. Fear asks how much truth can be removed while leaving every remaining sentence technically accurate.

A candidate under the 9th Commandment

The Heidelberg Catechism’s Lord’s Day 43, in unpacking the 9th Commandment, treats lying and deceit as works of the devil. We are taught that God is forbidding here not only false testimony, but also twisting another’s words, gossip, slander, and rash condemnation. Positively, the 9th Commandment requires us to love the truth, speak it candidly, and defend and advance our neighbour’s honor and reputation.

That is a demanding political ethic. It means a Christian candidate not only shouldn’t tell explicit falsehoods, he mustn’t even deliberately cultivate a false impression.

Obviously, a Christian candidate will not be able to include everything he believes in every campaign piece. But he should ask whether a reasonable voter would feel deceived if an omitted conviction became public the next day. When asked a direct and relevant question, he should answer it rather than hide behind words designed to leave opposite audiences with opposite impressions.

The same commandment governs how we speak about our opponents.

Christians on the political right are not immune to gossip, exaggeration, rash judgment, or caricature. We may call abortion the killing of preborn children. We may say that gender ideology rebels against the created order. We may identify attempts to have a man fired for lawful Christian speech as wicked. The 9th Commandment calls for moral clarity.

We may not twist an opponent’s words, invent motives, repeat allegations we have not verified, or treat every person on the other side as though he were guilty of everything done by anyone associated with his cause. We may oppose a policy as foolish, unjust, destructive, or contrary to God’s law without pretending to know every motive in the heart of the person promoting it.

The commandment also requires truthfulness about the office itself. Candidates should not promise powers the office does not possess. A municipal councillor must not pretend to be able to solve every social problem, command every public institution, or repair every failure of federal and provincial government. Exaggerating our own authority is also a form of false witness.

Finally, the commandment applies when falsehood favors us. If supporters exaggerate our accomplishments, circulate an untrue allegation against an opponent, or attribute an endorsement we did not receive, we may not quietly enjoy the advantage. We should correct flattering falsehoods as readily as accusations made against us.

The Christian candidate should be difficult to intimidate and difficult to provoke. He should refuse both cowardly concealment and slanderous combativeness.

Why municipal office?

Municipal politics may offer a particular opportunity for principled Christian service.

Municipal elections in Ontario are non-partisan, so candidates do not run under formal party banners. That removes one important part of the machinery of compromise. A municipal councillor is not formally required to defend an entire federal or provincial platform, submit to a party leader, or vote according to the direction of a caucus whip. He can own his judgment and explain his vote issue by issue.

That can make it easier to act as a principled Christian.

It does not make faithfulness easy.

There are still media narratives, activist groups, professional associations, donors, influential residents, council colleagues, city staff, and informal voting blocs. There is still the desire to be liked. There is still the fear of being treated as unreasonable, extreme, ignorant, or hateful.

In some ways, municipal pressure can be more personal. There is no national party organization absorbing the criticism. The councillor meets his opponents at the grocery store, the arena, the library, and the school event. The people affected by his decisions may be his neighbors, former colleagues, customers, fellow church members, or parents whose children play with his own.

Municipal independence therefore creates both an opportunity and a responsibility. A councillor has greater freedom to act according to principle, but he also has fewer excuses when he does not.

Municipal government is also wonderfully concrete. It concerns public order, roads, taxes, libraries, parks, planning, policing budgets, infrastructure, and whether families can use public spaces in safety.

Christian political involvement cannot be limited to dramatic protests or national controversies. We also need Christians who will read reports, steward tax dollars, protect neighborhoods, maintain good order, and carry out ordinary public duties faithfully.

A Christian candidate should be prepared not only to advocate or protest, but to govern.

Obedience and results

The author, in front of where he seeks to serve: “A candidate should take the office seriously and take his campaign seriously too, genuinely seek to win. You want to win because winning provides an opportunity to govern. But victory must remain a means of service rather than becoming a god.”

A phrase I once heard in a sermon has stayed with me:

“Obedience belongs to us. The results belong to the Lord.”

Proverbs 21:31 expresses the same truth: “The horse is prepared for the day of battle, but deliverance is of the Lord.”

That horse must still be prepared. Confidence in providence is not an excuse for carelessness, passivity, or half-hearted work. A candidate should take the office seriously and take his campaign seriously too, genuinely seek to win. You want to win because winning provides an opportunity to govern.

But victory must remain a means of service rather than becoming a god. Victory does not vindicate sinful methods, and defeat does not transform poor preparation, unnecessary harshness, or dishonesty into faithfulness. My loss in the 2021 federal election did not mean that the candidacy had been pointless. It formed my family, gave me experience, and contributed to later opportunities. Yet I could not know those results in advance. I was responsible to act faithfully and leave the consequences to God.

The same is true now. I do not know whether I will win my municipal election. I do not know what attention or pressure may come before election day. I do know that Christ’s lordship will not be strengthened by my victory or weakened by my defeat.

Perhaps you should run

Our churches contain men who manage employees, read financial statements, chair meetings, teach clearly, withstand conflict, make difficult decisions, and carry heavy responsibilities. Some serve as elders or deacons. Others sit on school boards, own businesses, work in the trades, farm, practise law, teach, manage organizations, or serve in the professions.

Those existing responsibilities may be reasons not to run, but they may also be evidence that God has given you gifts public office requires. You need not already be an expert in municipal law or public finance. Much of that can be learned. The question is not whether you are already a fully formed politician. It is whether the Lord has given you something your neighbors presently need.

It is therefore worth asking whether refusing to step forward could itself sometimes be unfaithful. That question should not be answered quickly, but with prayer, Scripture, counsel from family and church leadership, and honest examination of motive.

Are you declining because you already carry responsibilities that must not be abandoned, or because political office is public, costly, and likely to bring criticism? Are you guarding your family, or guarding your comfort? Are you exercising humility, or burying a talent?

You may never have spare time. You may not feel fearless. You may lose. Do not confuse ambition with calling or candidacy with entitlement to office. But if, after prayer and counsel, you believe God is calling you to offer yourself as a candidate, step forward.

Speak plainly. Tell the truth about yourself, your opponents, and the office. Defend your neighbor’s good name. Refuse to make public approval your master or electoral victory your god.

Someone will govern your community, and that government will act from some moral vision. The question is which one.

Obedience belongs to us. The results belong to the Lord.

*****

Christ is Lord of the magistrate too

The apostle John calls Jesus Christ “the ruler of the kings of the earth.” Psalm 2 commands kings and judges to serve the Lord with fear and to kiss the Son. Civil rulers are not autonomous authorities who may acknowledge God if they find it personally meaningful. They are servants who receive their authority from Him and will answer to Him.

Belgic Confession Article 36 speaks with refreshing directness:

“…because of the depravity of the human race, our good God has ordained kings, princes, and civil officers. He wants the world to be governed by laws and policies so that human lawlessness may be restrained and that everything may be conducted in good order among human beings.”

The Confession does not stop at saying that government should keep traffic moving and prevent theft. It says that civil rulers are called “to contribute to the advancement of a society that is pleasing to God.” They are to act subject to God’s law, remove obstacles to the preaching of the gospel and divine worship, resist anti-Christian power, and do so while refraining from absolute authority and remaining within the office entrusted to them.

This is neither statism nor religious neutrality.

The magistrate does not administer the sacraments or exercise ecclesiastical discipline. Those responsibilities belong to Christ’s church. Yet civil rulers are not therefore free to act as though Christ has no claim on public life. They should acknowledge Christ, govern subject to God’s law, protect the free course of the Word, and resist anti-Christian power by the lawful means entrusted to their office.

The magistrate must not usurp the government of the church, but neither may he pretend that civil government is religiously neutral.

A Christian understanding of government therefore includes the restraint of evil, the protection of the good, the preservation of public order, the honoring of marriage and family, respect for private property, the protection of preborn children, and recognition of the created distinction between male and female. It also includes the restraint of government itself. Civil rulers are not saviors, and their authority is never absolute.

Some of these matters are primarily the responsibility of federal or provincial government, rather than municipal. A city council cannot change Canada’s Criminal Code or determine federal abortion law, for example. But no municipal decision falls outside God’s moral order. At times the moral vision is unmistakable, as when councils fund Pride events, fly the Progress Pride flag on civic property, or use municipal bylaws to restrict the delivery of pro-life literature depicting the victims of abortion. More often, that moral vision is expressed less dramatically through decisions about libraries, public spaces, policing budgets, taxation, zoning, neighborhoods, and the treatment of families. In either case, council is acting from some view of the human person and of what a good society ought to be.

Because Christ is Lord, politics matters. Because Christ is Savior, politics cannot save.

That should make Christians more willing to serve and less willing to compromise. We can work seriously for a good political result without acting as though an election decides the fate of Christ’s kingdom.

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Evangelism

Real Talk: Would you risk your life for the gospel?

This episode can also be found on your favorite podcast platform: Spotify, Apple, Podbean, Amazon Music or on our website. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel and our podcast profiles so you can be notified when new episodes are released. Please note that this transcript below was automatically generated and lightly edited so it may contain some errors. ***** Opening For most Christians, foreign mission is something that we support from a distance. We pray, we give, and we hear stories from around the world. But what does it actually mean to leave the familiar and take the gospel to those who have never heard? In this episode, we're joined by Pastor James Folkerts, whose missionary journey has taken him through challenges few of us will ever face. His story is remarkable, and what God taught him through it is even more compelling. Together, we explore what foreign mission is, why it still matters in a world where the nations have come to us, and the reality of suffering for the gospel, and who should consider God's call to the mission field. Whether you're called to go, send, or simply want to better understand God's heart for the nations. This is a conversation you won't want to miss. We also want to let you know that we will be participating in the Reformed Perspective 10-day Screen Fast Challenge starting today, July 13th. It's not too late to join. Sign up today so you can log out, look up, and enjoy what matters most. To learn more or sign up, click the link in the description or go to reformperspective.ca. Intro The world's changing fast, but what questions should we really be asking? You're listening to Real Talk, a podcast presented by Reform Perspective, where we take God's Word and apply it to the nitty-gritty of life. Buckle up for real questions, real answers, and real direction. This is Real Talk. Tyler Vanderwoude Appreciate you joining us. That's it's gracious of you to come on and talk to us about world missions today. So yeah, thanks for Pastor James Folkerts Yeah, thanks having us. For having me, I always think of my wife being with me on this. TV I'm sure that's a strong partnership with some of the things you've gone through. JF Yeah, we've grown together through it, and it's a joy to serve Christ together in missions and in marriage together, so yeah, it's been a journey, that's for sure. TV Yeah, why don't you why don't you introduce yourself? I guess to the listeners a little bit. I guess to me a little bit. I don't know you well at all. So yeah, I guess how did you get here? And I kind of want to. I don't usually do this with guests, but I'm curious about your childhood and like how you got into having a love for the ministry and for mission work. JF Well, I was born and raised in Alberta in the Christian Reformed Church in Brooks, Alberta, and I remember one of the great things about being raised in the Christian Reformed Church back in the 70s and 80s, early 80s, was CRWRC, which was the Christian Reformed missions organization of that church, of that denomination. And I remember as a kid, you know, this was back in the day when you're trying to watch a hockey game and you're moving the bunny ears and the screen was so fuzzy, you could hardly see what was the puck and what was the, you know, the static, you know? So, I remember, and we never went to the movies, so we had these missionaries come to our church and they put on a big screen in color, a slideshow, and it was from Nigeria, and I remember seeing – I can still see in my mind like the lights are off, and as a kid, it's magical. You know, it was a magical experience of getting to hear about people serving Christ in Nigeria, and you know, people coming to believe in him and Christian education. So I think, like at a young age, those seeds were planted in my heart, and I started reading as a kid reading books about missionaries, John Patton, and even those Wambu books-I don't know if you remember those. TV Oh yeah! JF Just thinking about different cultures, and yeah, I had an interest in in that and hearing about people who were missionaries. And later on, my dad became a pastor, and we were in the United Reformed Church in Winnipeg, and I really just kept growing and wanting to do ministry, wanting to reach, bring Christ to the lost, and I had thought a lot about... I really, I really have a heart for the Middle East, and I studied at in my college, my undergrad. I had a Middle Eastern focus to some of my studies, and then after college, I did some framing construction work. I was a history major pre-seminary, and then I went to Israel to study at a school in Jerusalem, Jerusalem University College it was known as in early 2000, and there I was really struggling with what to do with my life and was thinking more an academic track and maybe teaching you know at a college level or something like that, but I saw students there who are like working on Ugaritic and working on a PhD that might take 10 years, and I thought, you know what, I want to work with people. And so after that, I quit that program, and then that fall went to Mid America and studied, started my DMIN or MDiv program, and my second summer assignment I went back to the Middle East and worked for Middle East Reform Fellowship, and that was a real blessing. I loved it. We got to meet Christians from all over the Middle East. This was before Syria went kaboom, and so I got to meet Christians from all over Syria, church leaders from the Presbyterian Church up there, and from Lebanon, and a lot of Christians from Egypt. And then after that first summer assignment, after or second summer assignment after graduation, then Mid America is really big on you know getting in the field and getting experience, and so after graduation, then I had half a year before my candidacy exam, so I was asked by that organization to come out again to the Middle East. So I went back out there. We were based in Cyprus, and I got, you know, a lot more experience during that time. And after my candidacy exam, then my home church in Winnipeg decided to send me out as a missionary. So I was ordained as a missionary in the United Reformed Churches and sent to go work in the Middle East again, and then I did a lot of time, a lot of my time there. In total, it was only two years, but I did a lot of time in northern Kenya on the border of South Sudan right after South Sudan had independence, and but it was still – South Sudan went through a you know a war of independence, and then they went through a civil war. You know, like the Americans had that, and those wars were kind of a little bit apart by a number of years, number of decades, but South Sudan had them basically back to back, and so we got to, I got to teach in Locachogyo on the border, church leaders, young people, and during that time, I'd met my wife-to-be in Canada, and I was on a one-year contract with MERF. At the end of that time, I thought, you know what? I need to, I was fresh out of seminary, I need to like just get into a quote normal church, and just learn, you know, my basic minister skills like writing sermons, working with people, figuring out who I am, as a pastor, and yeah, just because the mission field is, if you're a plant and you're planted in a weird pot that's the walls are really high and the dirt's only an inch deep, that plant's gonna grow, you know, five inches tall. It's gonna be all spindly and stuff. And you know, if you go to seminary and you go straight to the mission field, you can have some weird stuff can happen to you, will happen to you. And so I was seeing some of that too, and just recognizing if I'm going to get married and I have all this mission environment that I have to deal with, and I'm also really growing as a young pastor, I should come back and just be in a group in a consistory with elders who can also continue to shape and mold me where I can grow. And so that was one of the main reasons for not renewing out there, and then I came to Telkwa in the United Reformed Churches out there, in northern British Columbia, and that's where I served for a dozen or so years. And yeah, we have seven of our children out there, yeah, very fruitful time. We love the place. Very isolated. Had its challenges. Probably prepared us for the challenges that we'd have on the field later on. And then after, yeah, about after 12 years or so, then I was contacted by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. About whether I'd consider doing foreign missions in East Africa, and since I'd already been out there almost 20 years ago as a single guy, you know, I had some idea of what it was like. I, in many ways, I left the mission field the first time with a lot of grief, wishing because that was my dream to be a missionary, so to speak. But I accepted God's call, and you felt like it was the right thing to come off the field at the time. But now to get to go back again was exciting. But yeah, it's a whole different thing when you're going with a family. And the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, they had been working with the same tribe that I had briefly worked with when I was in Kenya. Uganda's the country right to the west of Kenya, and yeah, in Uganda we were working with the Karamajung, and in in Kenya was with the Turkana tribe. And those are two different names, but it's the same tribal group of people. So essentially, when the OPC said you want to work with these people, I'm like, “well, describe them to me”, and they're telling me about them. I'm like, this sounds like the same group. I didn't know, and I said, "How do they say the name God? I said, "Do they say Akuj? And they're like, "Yeah.” I'm like, "This is the same group. Like I, I know these, I know this”, you know. So in the providence of God, my wife and I we went to check it out, and I felt uniquely called to that work. And really, I told the OPC, "Well, put us on the list. Just put us on the bottom of the list because you're looking at someone outside your denomination, and you have seven, and we have seven kids. So, like, obviously, like we're not your top pick. Little did I know, the bottom was also their top, you know. So it had, yeah. It was a was really really special work that that had been doing for over 20 years in this one place called Karamoja, and we were in the little village of Nakale, and it is when the mission when the OPC missionaries went up there years before they were working in a town called Embali, and they went up to this different tribal group that really had never been civilized under the British Empire, if you want to use that term, and they still lived their semi-nomadic life with polygamy, high levels of violence, drunkenness. When you, in order to get a wife, you have to basically steal someone else's cattle to pay the dowry to your father-in-law's family, and cattle raiding for that reason resulted in a lot of people getting murdered, and just a very violent, impoverished way of life. There's nothing really pristine about it, and in essence, when we got there, we got to really live in in an ancient anthropology, like living in the Old Testament. So I would say it's like living with Jacob and Esau with cell phones. So TV Was your wife on board with this? Like, was your wife excited to do this with all the kids? JF She was not too excited. No, she was kind of nervous, and obviously, you know, she was should. That was a good instinct, you know. TV Sounds like it. JF She had also grown up on the mission field. Her dad is a Canadian Reformed pastor, and they had served in Indonesia on the island of Sumba for a number of years. She grew up there, learning the Indonesian language and you know running around almost like a native tribal kid in a way, without electricity and all of that, so she knew that experientially what that meant-not just to live there, but also to come back to a Western lifestyle and what that mean for your kids, and what that mean for our kids. But yeah, we did feel the Lord calling us there. It was a process that we had to work through. One of the things that we saw when we went over there was that we were going to work with a team in Uganda that could really care for us and make this work. So we had people that would help with the education of our kids, homeschooling, and so it wasn't like we were just doing a bare pioneer work, moving into a village all by ourselves, and you know that it wasn't going to be safe. TV Right, so that helps a lot. Yeah, wow, that's quite the journey. Like you started, it sounds like you've almost never not been thinking about mission. Like it's, it just has been part of your life since you were a kid. Is that is that fairly common with people who do mission work; those who are called to be missionaries? JF I think God puts it on our hearts. It's one of my reasons for. I always talk to kids about missions. I think that's if you want to promote it, you have to start there, and it's a great place to start. I think of my other missionary friends. It's something that was planted in their hearts too at a young age, often. TV What did the time as a pastor? I guess 12 years is a long time to be a pastor, be away from the field, and then go back. Like, what did that teach you in the end? Like, was that was that a good idea? Was that something you would recommend others? JF Well, I guess everyone has their own path to the mission field, or and their own growth journey in ministry. But yeah, part of when you become a minister, you're learning about, it's not just getting your education at seminary and now you're good to go. I mean, maybe it is, but there is a real growth curve in just learning how to communicate well, learning how to teach well, how to teach all the Bible doctrines in a clear way, in a simple way, like just teaching catechism to young people is really important. If you can't really teach catechism, teach the basic doctrines to your own people and your own culture, how are you going to be able to simply do that into another culture? So that is a really big, that's a big need. Like I got to see people come over from Canada to Africa, guest pastors or something, and you listen to them teach or preach, and you see they're saying all the right things, but nothing's going into the, nothing's going into the audience because they're not speaking simply. They're not. You look at their audience, and they're all looking outside the fence at the cows that are going by. They're not able to hold their attention. So if you can't hold 12th graders' attention in catechism, if you get really frustrated with that and you can't work get through that, you're gonna have a really hard time on the mission field, right? Just saying the words doesn't mean that you're actually communicating well to the locals, so to really understand the… yeah, understanding how to communicate well is vitally important on the field, you know. And then you have many of cultural issues, language issues, and it’s really, really challenging, right? It's really challenging, and I can't say I'm, I did it well, but I could see like having. I'm thankful I had a dozen years under my belt, you know. TV Yeah. Did you get any formal training for that? Like for how to communicate in those settings, or is it basically was it kind of like, hey, you've done this, you know, you kind of go there here and there on internships or whatever, and then they just throw you at it? JF Yeah, I think ministry – it's like a good teacher, you know, in a Christian school, like the ones that have been doing for 25 years, like they know what they're doing by and large, right? And I think that's what experience does. And yeah, there's no better way than experience, not just reading a book or… So that that's I think, and some people are more gifted than others on that, but I think that's one of the qualifications. Like when you think about sending someone to the field, you know, are they able to teach? Are they able to teach in their own church? You know, when back here, you know? Do they do a really good job at it, or do they kind of, you know… Is it a gift? Is it their gift? Because you're spending that money to send this guy to the other side of the world, and if they don't have that gift, then you know maybe you need to look for someone else, right? TV Right. If someone has that, is that really the, I guess the biggest thing that makes a missionary successful? Like you were thrown from, from like the Middle East to, I guess, a similar belief system, maybe, but into Africa. Like you're spanning different cultures and different contexts, like, do you find that that's a big barrier, or having that kind of grounding of being able to teach sort of translates once you get past the language barrier or understanding the culture a little bit? JF Yeah, I just think like if to explain things simply into a culture, like in Karamoja, you have to be able to understand their own cultural context, their agrarian way of thinking. That's yeah, it's just entirely different worldviews. So once you get into that, you can't just take out your seminary notes and start explaining. You know, can't do that. You have to… even their own way of learning things in their own schools is often just rote memorization. So, you want to like try to think about how can we get you know them to do critical thinking, but at the same time, telling stories is teaching through stories is a very important way of, just like the Lord Jesus, it's a very important way of communicating and having things in a conversational tone rather than just here is a logical treatise on what whatever doctrine you're trying to explain, they won't get that right. TV Right, yeah, that makes sense. Was a lot of that work done for you when you got there? Like, did they understand and help you? JF Yeah, I was blessed to have, you know, three or four other missionaries who'd gone before us and had and their families and had really laid down a really good groundwork and had done a lot of translating of Westminster standards, the Shorter Catechism, and so for me, like even I didn't, I was trying to learn the language there, but. Since in Uganda English is the national language, the I could work with translators right off the bat. So that was, you know, that was really helpful. So yeah, I was by no means some big pioneer missionary or something like this. I got to kind of actually reap what other people had sowed. TV So did you did you already know the language then? JF No, I did not. And it’s an extremely difficult language. So, my wife is a language person. I'm not. I don't even speak English good. TV Like, what is that like? Because that to me is one of those things that's in my mind even as a kid like sitting through these presentations that was always a thing that I was like I'm not really a… I don't really even…. we had… I was in Ontario we had to learn French I wasn't good at that like you're already thinking like the barrier for me to be comfortable in that I mean, I don't even know if comfortable is the right word to be honest, but to be able to be effective, I guess in that environment, I just felt like for myself personally, I may have dismissed this as a thing in life because I think that barrier was just too big for me to grasp. Like, so what is that like to get over? Like, you make a decision after 12 years of being here, and I guess not comfortable, I guess, but you're making a big life move for your family, for everything, and then you still have this barrier of I'm not even going to be able to communicate when I get there. JF Well, because in Uganda English is the national language, I knew… and I would probably say the same thing as you. Because I'm not a big language person. I've studied a lot of language. I've studied my biblical languages and Dutch and now Karamazong and a little bit of Arabic. And my comfort in going over there was English is a national language. I can find translators, and I will be able to, through translators and through my rednecking of trying to like just learn this language, I'm gonna be a blessing, and I'm gonna trust God with it. And so, you know, learning a language is a very humble thing. You become, you have to become like a child, and that's the best thing. When you when you just put yourself in a child way of thinking mentality, then you can go over there and try to babble your way through the language, and you're in a humble position before these people, and they actually enjoy it, right? And so that's what we did. So I, when I got there, I started working on the language right away. Not my forte, but… TV I guess you go over humble and you find a translator, and then like they enjoy it? They actually sit with you through that? JF Yeah, so I can tell you the story of how some of those things work because when we got there in 2019, in November, we went out there with our family of seven kids. We landed. Little did we know, we heard like in China, there's this thing called COVID that's happening, right? We shipped a container. We shipped one storage container to Africa from BC with our some of our belongings in there, and tools, generators, a welder, couches, parts of my library, that kind of stuff, and we got into Uganda, and by I think within three months, February or something that would have been of 2020, our container arrived, and that was a surreal thing just to see this metal box that you shipped off in BC, and now you see it arrive in the middle of East Africa. We're living in a rural savanna land. You know there used to be elephants running around. They've all been you know eliminated and stuff, but there's still giraffe and this and that, and here arrives your container, and your belongings come out of it, and you begin life there. TV You’re like these don’t really belong here, to be honest JF Yeah, within a within a couple weeks of our container arriving, we go into lockdown. TV Oh wow! JF Had that container been a few weeks late, we probably never would have seen our stuff. So we go into lockdown, and now what happened was the other missionary I was working with, he had he and his wife had done a really intensive good work, discipling a number of young men in the community, young boys, homeschooling them sort of and giving them a good discipleship program was called the Timothy Discipleship Program, and they they were going off the field on furlough that summer, and with they're actually going to go earlier, but then COVID happened, and they were asking, "What are you going to do with these boys? Like, are you going to take them, James? Or and I said, well, I didn't come to Africa to homeschool a dozen or more boys. I got to deal with my own kids, and we've never done that before. And we're just trying. I got to try and learn this language. I got a church to take care of. We're running a helping to run a clinic. We're doing discipleship. We're doing funerals. We're doing all kinds of stuff. So I said we can't take care of these, we can't homeschool these kids, which was fine. So all these kids went off to their boarding schools. But within three weeks of the lockdown happening, all schools in Uganda were closed, and they remained closed for two years. I think people tell me it's one of the longest lockdowns in the whole world. Well, because we had we're living in the middle of nowhere, all these young people who would have been in a boarding school down country somewhere, an hour or so away, they all came home back up to the bush where we were living. TV Oh wow! JF And so you have 1000s of kids doing nothing, and so I took those guys, and I, I thought, what we're going to do is I have to learn language, I have to learn the culture, I have to preach a sermon every Sunday. We're trying to do evangelism in the community – reach, bring Christ. So how am I going to do all of this? So I said, “I'm going to just take these dozen guys, and they're just going to go with me and do whatever I do. They're coming with.” So we're going to write sermons together, and I'm going to teach hermeneutics and homiletics and exegesis and history and geography, and I'm gonna explain the text to them. But at the same time, I'm gonna be learning from them because we're gonna be doing this in Karamazong, in their language. So I had a big white, I had a pavilion outside my house, an open air area with a big whiteboard, and we worked on things together. So we were all learning, and it was really neat because I got to actually understand what they understood and what they didn't understand. So I wasn't just standing up front on Sunday and grabbing my old sermons that I had preached years ago and not really knowing how this was going to be received. And the beautiful thing was, is they actually really helped me to write sermons. And then at the end, you know, they also had a message, and when they were translating for me on Sunday, they knew where this sermon was going, right? TV Oh, that's cool. That probably helps a lot. JF And they also were able to take these messages out into their own villages that they were coming from under the other acacia mango trees, and there they would bring God's word. So we reached, you know, many many people during that during that time, and these guys were really – they were trained, they were, you know, raised up in their communities that they came from as, you know, leaders. And so that was just a kind of a summary statement of how we kind of try to do a lot of things by just working together every day. TV Wow. So does that did that help expedite your language learning and cultural learning? JF It did, yeah. And I'm not a lot of that stuff hasn't stuck anymore, but I could still, you know, sing some of the songs. My wife and I are like, what was the word for this again? TV Did you ever become fluent in it? JF Oh no, no. The thing is, like, when you only have four years and you're going straight to work, you really need like a year that's totally dedicated to language. And I wasn't given that, and I was fine with that because we knew, like, when we signed up for this, we said our oldest is, you know, around 12 years old, 13 years old at the time. So we know we're going to sign up for a four-year term, so that by the time we get off the field, they can finish up with high school, and we need to be able to bring our kids back and acclimatize them back to North American lifestyle. So we signed up as of on a four-year term, and we did say like, well, maybe at four years we'll stop and reconsider and do another term. But we, you know, we're really thankful for the decision we made. TV Is that a pretty healthy way to do that? Like to commit? I mean, not not that four years is short by any means. It's an entire entire high school career, but is that pretty typical? JF That’s a good question. Like, I think you with the OPC, what they do is they have they have a view of long-term missions, but missionaries don't always have to be long-term. Ordinarily, it's a four-year term, and then that's up for review within your own team that you're in. So the mission team that we were part of on the field, there's a number of different families working there. One helping to run a clinic, the other pastor, and then maybe a couple discipleship or a diaconal people there, and then you know some singles that are helping with families, helping with you know medical things. Every four years, you're kind of like up for review within your own team, and they evaluate whether it's good that you're still there. If you need to have a break, or for yes, for the team for you to move on. So, yeah. TV Is that like is the work mostly – were you doing most of it, or your was your wife pretty heavily involved? JF Yeah, my wife was focused on keeping our seven kids alive, which is not an exaggeration. But yeah, she was focused on homeschooling and just daily running the home, which was more than a full time job. For example, we had two women that would come to our house every day just to wash our laundry by hand. And then and those two women they each had a number of kids, so we were supporting two families just by having her clothes washed, so my wife actually learned Karamazong better than I did. She was working with those Karamazong ladies who spoke zero English, so she did an amazing job just getting to know them and ministering to them, and then when we got when we got to Karamoja, the needs are so great there. There's so much hunger, akaro as they would call it, that we could have, you know, many people just standing in front of our gate in the morning, begging. So you know, like the Bible story, the rich man and Lazarus. Well, we were the rich man, and we had Lazarus at the gate. And the question was, how do we handle that, right? How do you, how do you deal with that? And our team, we had like half a dozen different, or four or five different families there, and everyone had a bit of a different idea of how to handle, how to live in a real, in a culture of serious needs and a lot, and a very begging culture too. And so my wife would have a lot of requests while I was out for help, you know. people needing food, kids with ear infections, kids with malaria begging for money so that they can go to the clinic for this and that, and that became very that's a very stressful thing because you don't know what the truth is, and many of the locals are looking at you. You're being tested to see what you will do. So if you have a kind and generous heart, you'll just feed that, and you'll have more people at the gate the next day. So what do you do? TV Did that did that create unsafety there? Like, was were they dangerous ever? JF No, no, they weren't. They weren't very. They weren't dangerous. They could be really rude, and with their begging, but like there were times we helped for a while in different ways, and you know we'd have there'd be some a mother who's had like a sick child, or you're very impoverished, so you maybe give them some food, and you're thinking you're doing a good thing, right? And then you find out through other missionaries, or maybe through your laundry ladies who know what's going on in the community, that this person is actually just selling the food at the corner and buying alcohol, buying booze, and getting drunk, and her kids are still malnourished. So you just realize like we don't really know. We think we're doing good, but we don't always know what's really going on. So that was a big challenge, and we had a lot of different ideas on our team about how to handle that question, and that was part of our wrestling. You know, for a good part of our time, they're like, "What should we be doing this?” And at a certain point, what we realized was that we were not helping the situation and what we were doing, and what we needed to do was we all as missionaries needed to get on the same page and not give. Now that might seem really weird, but not give at our gate. And so you can imagine our mission. It's like a chain link fence compound of five acres or something with half a dozen homes on it, and people are coming to your gate every day playing trick or treat. And some people give, some people don't, and it's an exhausting thing. And what we realized is we had to get on the same page and try to give to the local church that we were trying to plant, Nakalay Presbyterian Church, and give to what we called the Mercy Committee, and that was a group of volunteers from within the Church of Karamajung, and they managed that. And so when people came to us, we said, "You have to go to the church. They meet on Fridays at right after lunch, and you can go make your request to them.” And when that happened, it shut down so much of the begging, and it also put power into the local church and into the local diaconate to give. And those are the people who knew what was happening on the ground and knew, you know, where mercy was needed and where you know other actions were needed instead of mercy, you know. So, and what happened from that was we actually built up, you know, a functioning diaconate within the local church. TV Right. Yeah, I guess that's so hard to know from your standpoint. And then it's also like all the funds you're giving and all the all the resources you have are all donated, or they're all they're coming from somewhere. JF Yeah, and we would be giving like just out of our own personal, you know, you know, my 20 bucks or whatever that I have, I'll go help this person, you know, and that, but yeah, it is very challenging. But we realize that we're often getting in the way of, you know, by our own generosity and our own the mercy of our own heart. But it's really important to think about your methodology and how, you know, that mission had been doing this for 20 years, but until we got there, there was no real functional diaconate in the church because everyone was the missionaries were kind of doing what was right in their own eyes, right?\ TV What did your work look like after you had that initial time, or were you basically on lockdown for the majority of your tenure? JF Yeah, those two years it was under lockdowns that would change. My wife would tell you that there was a point during lockdown where she hadn't been off our compound. She didn't go out for six months. We when we knew lockdown was happening, we went down to the city and I bought a huge gunny sack full of brown beans and another huge gunny sack of rice. I'm like, okay, this will keep my family alive, right? And we stocked up on food. And then during another point of the lockdown, we weren't allowed to drive our vehicles. You could only have one person. Only certain people could even be on the road… TV Really? JF …and it wasn't us. So that was that was really stressful. It didn't last long, but you didn't know how long it was going to last. Of course, you weren't allowed in some points like travel between various counties or districts. So that was really those were kind of if you thought about it too much, kind of scary, really scary. But we trusted in the Lord for that, and just kept working, kept serving in the community, and we had enough work to do there. We'd go up the mountain. There's a big volcanic mountain, Mount Kadam, by us, over 10,000 feet up, and we go up on the plateaus below it and camp up there, and you know, tell people about the Lord Jesus and take our ministry discipleship team up there. And yeah, it was a it was a very actually a very beautiful time. Could be stressful, but we got to see people growing in Christ, and yeah, I look back at it with a lot of, I miss it, you know. TV Yeah, was most of the work done in the in the town in the communities, or was it a lot of that like nomadic villages? JF So when you think of you know when you think of rural, when you think in in North America, when you think rural, you think low density a low density population, more depending on the area, but in an ancient anthropology, rural could be quite densely populated because everyone's living off their land, a few acres that they have, and so there's a lot of there can be a lot of people, you know, 1000s and 1000s of people in all these villages spread out because they all have their animals like Jacob and Esau and Lot and Abraham, and so you have your animals, and you move them out during the day onto the grasslands where there's grass, and then at night you bring them in. So you can because of that you have people that are spread out all over with their animals to the grazing lands that they're in, and also they need to have water. So you know it's often the towns are built around the water sources because that's what they need for themselves, but also for their livestock. TV But then not no infrastructure, I guess, or no like there's nothing there. JF Not a lot, no, not a good job with mud huts and our mission. Years ago, I drilled many, many wells all through the area. So that, of course, like creates more stability and people don't have to move around as much because there's you know water all the time in this one spot, right? Like these semi-nomadic people had largely stopped being nomadic. They were no longer moving like this tribe at one point, hundreds of years ago, come from Ethiopia and moved through Kenya and South Sudan and found their way into Uganda. They're an ilotic tribe, so yeah, basically they had stopped moving, and now it's like, what do we do? This is the struggle now, like with modernization and you know land titles and stuff. What are you going to do with your life? TV Is there still like leadership and stuff then? JF Oh yeah, like there's tribal elders and all that, but they're thinking the old way, right? They're thinking the old way, like Jacob and Esau yet, and on the move cattle rating, and people are realizing we need to modernize. We need to. Our kids need to get education. You know, we need to figure out how we can survive and just live on this plot of land. Now, how are we going to do that? TV Do they have technology? JF There are. There's a power line that runs through in this in the local towns in the market centers. You know they'll have, you know they have their electricity, and you can buy your cell phones there. They're cell phone tower towers, so you know the internet's coming in, and movies and everything from the West is coming in. So that's it's a changing like every few every few years, you can just tell like things are changing there. The young people are changing, and the old ways are going away. And that's a real opportunity right now. Is we really need to get in there with the word, with the gospel, and because this is a tribe that never, that always resisted change, and now this next generation is changing, right? And if we can be there with the gospel and really warn them, like you know, the what the Western way of life is not the gospel, you know, we have to bring Christ to these people. TV Yeah, right. Well, that's true, eh? Because it feels as if you're doing them a favor by modernizing or bringing technology or bringing what we have in the Western world. Because it seems on the surface so much better, but there's so much weakness to that too. Like if you just if you gave them everything that we have in terms of technology and affluence, it's not like you're giving them any hope. JF That’s not our hope, right? That's what we have to teach them. TV Is that hard for them to grasp? Like, do they? I guess on any more foreign mission field, like, do they feel like when you show up, you're coming with an agenda for a certain culture or a certain way? JF I mean, yeah, for them, often when they see missionaries come, and they've seen them come for hundreds of years or 100 years, let's say, depending on the place, they've seen it all before, right? Often, we're not actually the first ones there, you know. Other groups have been through there. All different denominations have gone through, and often short term, like someone's here for a month, someone teaches them how to farm or whatever it is, someone drills a well, then the well breaks, you know, and so the, you know, when they see us, often they look at us as a short term, a short term visitor, who they need to try to push the ATM buttons on to get the money or get something out of. TV They're sort of looking to exploit you a bit. JF Yeah. So you'll see, you'll see like groups go in, build, build a school, and they can show that back home. You know, we built a school over here, and then you find out, well, it's not really a school. You know, someone took all the iron sheets off the roof, and it went to the guy's brother-in-law, and or someone else is living there, and it's not really, it's not really functional, right? So, yeah, there is a lot of, I don't know how to put it, but a lot of wasted work that's done on the field, and a lot of, a lot of times where like we had, we had like the World Food Program, Save the Children, these organizations, and some other ones. I don't remember all the names, but they'd often like give food right outside our mission in our church at our church compound, and so you'd see lineups of 100 or more people, you know, hundreds of people lined up in front of our church under the big acacia trees, and you know the trucks would be there and they'd be handing out, you know, these granola bar type things for nutrition bars with peanut butter and whatever it is…. and our clinic used to do that too in a various ways. But then once you're in the community, once you live there for 20 years, you begin to know these people, and so when these NGOs come out and do this, you find out in the community that they're testing, these NGOs come out and say you have to qualify as malnourished to get this this food. So these moms will stop feeding their kids for a week. TV Oh man. JF Pin them right down, and so and then they'll check them and go yeah they're malnourished, and then they'll qualify to get a jug of oil or whatever it is, right? TV Oh wow! JF So you see some of these things, and you're it can just leave you really discouraged, you know, jaded, and realizing like we really have to know what's going on the ground, right? We do short term things. It feels good, but what is this really doing? So at one point early on, I went up to the main government district town, and there I met with the president of Uganda has a man in every county that speaks directly to him. It's like the king's man, basically. And so I went up to that man, and he was from a different tribe. And they always put what I'm told is they always take that guy who's in that position – he's never of that tribe. Uganda has many, many tribes, so they don't put the same guy of that tribe in there. They always have someone else from another tribe speaking to the president for this local. So I went to this guy, and I don't know anything. So I said, "Like, how can we be working here? How do we help these people, the Karamazon?” And they said, “These people are beggars. Don't give them anything. They're already ruined by all the people that have come through here to try to help them.” TV Really? JF Now, I just heard that, and I'm like, well, I don't know what to do with that. That seems extreme, but, but a lot of people who've served there for a long time really can get really jaded, and this man who wasn't Ugandan himself said that. TV Wow! JF So our challenge is our challenge was how do we reach these people with Christ and love them and seek to do justice but love mercy and walk humbly with God and the big thing is when you're in these places, you're really, really tested. Your heart is tested because you get used, you get lied to, your stuff gets stolen. Right? People treat you as an ATM machine. It's like I didn't come here just to like be your ATM machine or to be the World Food Program with 20 people lined up at my gate every day. That's not sustainable. We wanted to bring more than just some stuff to you guys. That's what we're kind of sick of in the West is stuff. But how do we do that? And so, to walk humbly with God through all these times, like to realize we have received mercy from Christ, and that we cannot be proud, and we cannot become calloused or jaded, and sometimes we naturally do. So we have to keep going back to the Lord, and it's easy not to love mercy after a while too, because you can get so frustrated. These people, and yeah, it's easy. It's easy to despair. It's very easy to get, to despair over there at just the impossible task of changing people, and then you realize, well, that's not my job, actually. I have to go back to the Lord, and what these people need most of all is Jesus. He's the bread of life, and one of my teammates said to me, “James, before you came here, these people lived here for hundreds and hundreds of years, and they lived here without you, and God somehow took care of them, the poor you will always have, and we're here to bring the living water that won't stop flowing and the bread of life that will truly nourish, and that's what's going to change”, and so that's what we really tried to, to focus on and not get distracted by just becoming an aid organization, you know. TV Right. Yeah. Has that changed the way you look at your ministry now? Like I'm trying to think of I'm trying to trying to put myself in your shoes, I guess in in that spot, and eventually you just yeah you're kind of standing on the shoulders of the people before you in a way, but you're also inheriting all the unintentional issues they created. JF Yeah, like for example, like last week I preached on the Beatitude blessing. are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. And one of the things we learned, we had when we're when you're bringing Christ to people, they're receiving the mercy of Christ, and they have to learn to understand what their identity is in Jesus. So that means, I mean, we all get that, but I always say they would say to me, “Pastor, we're poor, we have nothing”, and I would tend to agree with that, but that's wrong, right? It's true, but it's also wrong because in Christ, I would say to them, "What do you have?” “Well, we have no money, we have no food, we have no education, we have no work.” I said, "Yes, that's true, but you have, you have one another? You have Jesus. You're forgiven and the Christian life.” This is one of the big things that I learned is experientially that Christian discipleship. Christian discipleship often when I you disciple someone, you say I led this person to the Lord by God's grace, and that's fine. But Christian discipleship is never just an individualistic thing. Christian discipleship is always onto a team. What that means is, an example of that is, if I teach someone to dribble and shoot a basketball, I haven't made them a basketball player. I have to coach them onto a team, and we have to, I had to think about with the guys that I was training, I can't just teach them the Bible and what marriage is, and you know, get rid of the polygamy thing and don't steal anymore and don't get drunk. I had to teach them how to be on the team in the body of Christ, because the body of Christ is an active thing as well. It's not just well, we're in the body of Christ, we just go to church. But how do we disciple people onto a team? And because the reality is, the Christian life is against a team, the world of flesh and the devil. So if you just disciple someone and they're just an individualist Christian who has no function in the church, they're going to get on the basketball court, right? And they're going to face the opposition, and they've never learned how to run a defense or an offense or play together or defend one another or protect each other or encourage one another, and they're going to get destroyed. So what we want to do, going back to my guys saying, "Well, we have nothing, Pastor.” I'd say “No, don't believe that. That's a lie. That's a lie from the devil that you have nothing. You have Christ, right? You have a team. You have one another in the whole community.” Everyone stealing each other's cows, chickens, food, emptying their granaries, murdering one another. It's horrible, dads who are totally delinquent, just impregnating women, and it's a complete disaster, right? And I said, “You guys, you love one another. You might not have anything physically, but you can go to the neighbor. You can help. O her garden, you can watch each other's property so stuff doesn't get stolen. And when we come to church, we're looking out for each other, we're praying for one another, we're caring for each other, and that's the body of Christ.” And that's part of our great witness. Our witness isn't just our individual thing, but it's also the team, just like you didn't win the playoffs, but you got the sportsmanship award. You know, like our churches, our missions should get the sportsmanship award, so to speak. And going back to that idea of blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. I say, you know, every kingdom has its own currency. Every you imagine if you're serving the kingdom of self, your kingdom has its own dollar bill, and it's your face on it; depending if you're doing great, your nose is up in the air, and you flip the backside over, and there's all your works, and they're amazing what you did. Or if your kingdom of self is depressed and lousy, you look terrible on the front of it, and you have you have no value, and you can live out of the currency of your kingdom, and that's either your pride or your despair. And I said to our guys, like, “are you living out of that, or are you going to live under out of the currency of the kingdom of King Jesus?” And that that is grace, that is forgiveness, that is love, that is considering others better than yourselves, that is laying down your life for one another, all of those things, and that's our riches in Christ. And so, even if you're an impoverished situation, you're rich in Christ. And actually, when you when you work together as a team, and you're rich in Christ, often you get somehow your material well being often improves as well as you care for one another and walk in God's commandments, right? So that was kind of if we can work at that ground level, spiritual level, seeking first the kingdom of God. What does Jesus say? “Seek first the kingdom, and all these other things will be added unto you.” And so that is that heart central place where we have to work, and when they can get that vision, you know that's the road to spiritual prosperity, and by God's grace, you know material prosperity as well. TV Wow. Yeah, I mean that hits here too, like you said for that sermon. I mean, thinking of ourselves as a community, I mean, definitely is different than thinking about ourselves individually. JF Yeah, and the other thing with that too is like, if you have your two bills, one from the kingdom of self, so to speak, and one from Jesus' kingdom, what do you use when you, which bill do you use when you give mercy to people? Right? Do you give it out of the kingdom of self, out of your works, which often then is manipulative or based on, I'll give this to you, but you give back, or this inflates my ego, my kingdom, right? Or maybe in your life you've really messed up, you're really depressed with your life because it's you've just screwed up so much, and you say I have nothing to give, right? And then you don't give, you don't give of – not talking financially even – like you just give your whole life. And when we're living out of our life in Christ, out of His riches, that's where true mercy flows. And it's not legalistic mercy. It's not conditional. It's a beautiful thing, and that's part of our witness, you know. And that's what the world needs. That's what Karamoja needs. They need it. They need to taste and see that God is good, and that comes through his people, often comes through his church, and the church is you know we call it all the time the body of Christ and that's true, and it it's through the hands and feet of the body of Christ that the world gets to taste Jesus in a way, you know. TV Yeah, man. So that, I guess, too though that point, like the hands and feet: how do you think about that? Like, obviously, you went out and did it, and you've had this on your heart since you were a kid. How do you encourage younger people, or even ministers that you talk to now, to consider the world, the world mission, like to go abroad? Who do you encourage? I guess, and then how do you encourage them? How do you think about that? Is it just a blanket everyone should think about this, or do you think about it a little bit, you know, more nuanced than that? I guess. JF Yeah, it's a good question. I'm still, I still, now that I'm on this side of it in the West, I think about foreign missions, and I think about exactly that question. How do we go about doing that? Promoting foreign missions, doing foreign missions, and well, it's one word my congregation always hears now is we have to do it as a team because we're a team on this side, and our missionaries have to be a team on the field, so just to back up, like sometimes in you know missionaries they can go to they can go wherever they are wherever they go and they want to teach like a Presbyterian Reformed Church government – elders ruling the church and all of that, so they go over there and they want to set up that church government, but the practical way in practice, what they do is they teach one thing and then embody another by being a little hope over there. They've been serving right. It's their mission. They've been doing this for 30 years. It's their gig. It's their school. It's their church. They're the boss. They've helped everybody. They've saved everybody's lives, and that's you know that can be very dangerous and very intoxicating. And one of the things I learned, I'll get back to your question, but we helped build a, we built a soccer field in where we were living, and the locals we play soccer with them, and they'd have big tournaments at Christmas, and they would jokingly call me, they'd say it in this way, “Pastor, Pasta, you are Ronaldo, you are Ronaldo,” and so we would joke with that. I am not Ronaldo, but I didn't want to play with them because they played, they were very dangerous players, get injured very easily. But it was all we all had name soccer names for each other, football names as they called it. And I said, "Okay, what happens if I on the ministry team am Rinaldo? When you get the ball, who will you pass it to? You give it to me, then I score, and I'm your hero, right? So what happens often with our missionaries is they become Ronaldo. Now, when Ronaldo leaves, what team do you have left, right? Ronaldo hasn't built a team; it's just about him”, and I we use that illustration with our guys, and they got it. And I said, I'm leaving in a year, and I can't be Ronaldo. I don't want to be Ronaldo. And when I am, I need to repent of being the star guy. It's not about me, right? It's about Jesus. And so, because we have to build, we have to build Christ's church, and that means we have to be able to get out of the way. And you think about Paul saying, like some are saying, "I'm of Paul, I'm of Cephas, I'm of this guy,” and that is really, really destructive to missions. And I think, and that's one of the dangers, actually, of long-term missions. So people talk about long-term missionary. That's a good thing, but we have to be really, really careful. We don't build our missions around one guy out on the field, right? TV Interesting. JF Be careful with that. We have to, and what that means is, in our sending churches, to go back to like, how do we send missionaries? Well, we have to send as a team as well, right? We have to have a long term vision for a particular field, and we got to care for the ones that we send over there. Sometimes pastors in the West have our time where they feel like they're not even being cared by their own church well, you know. And they're the people around them; they see them every Sunday. So you can imagine if a pastor's experienced that in a local church here in North America, and it's hard to be known and loved and cared for and understood. You know what's going on, this and that. Now you take that person and you move them to the other side of the world. How are you going to care for that person? TV Yeah. JF Right? It's really challenging to. Do it well, and it goes back to the very beginning of our talk. When you, when you live in a on the foreign field, under intense pressures like a war zone, right, with huge stresses for both you, for the husband and the wife and kids, you can grow really weird, like the plant growing in the pot, right? It's huge pressures, right? So how do you, how do our sending churches really understand what's happening on the field and care for that to do it well? TV Yeah, like we, how do you keep tabs on? Because I mean, I guess the typical way is like you read the newsletter, and it's like, well, you'll you don't get a lot of, yeah, you don't know if your missionary is becoming a Rinaldo out there based on a newsletter. JF No, and the thing is, like, newsletters, even in the Bible, they don't tell us everything. Paul's missionary journeys, they don't tell us like what happened with his team, Paul had a team, but we don't know the details. So, but it's really important to try to think about the person or the family that you're sending. How are you going to care for them? Well, right. And I really appreciated the Orthodox Presbyterian Church because they put around us, we were a part of a local team on the field that cared for us well, and we try to care for each other. We're all sinners, and we're all stressed out and go bonkers sometimes, and you have to work with one another. Really, really challenging. But and then they also had a committee of people who understood missions, understood the stresses, and really cared for and loved us well. And that was why when they first called us to go out there, and I saw the infrastructure that was there for care, I thought, “okay. I think by God's grace, we can do this as a family and survive”, so to speak. You know, and do well. You know, not without challenges, not without stress, not without danger, but so yeah, I think your question is like, how do we send now? I think we really have to work together on the North American side or wherever we're coming from, and we have to also talk to other churches that are working in that area, so we're not duplicating work, and we need to think about in our in the foreign settings that we're working we have to really under do good leg work on the ground, know what's know the history, know what's been done, know the scoundrels in the area who've like used the mission, other missionaries that have come through. Like, really, don't go in there naive because you'll be taken out. TV Yeah. How do you think about that? Because, like, I guess, like, when we say the words like foreign mission or world mission, like, we think go to all nations, so that all nations hear about Christ. Like, I guess right away in the West, you think, well, the West has heard. Let's go to somewhere they don't have never, you know. It used to be, I guess, in the 60, 70, 50, 60, 70’s, maybe it was like they've never seen a white man before, like that kind of idea. But now it's maybe they've been touched. But I mean, there's a bit of a difference there in our minds. I think between people who have never heard or people who are part of this, part of a culture that has experienced missionaries over the last say 50, 60, 70 years. So how do you pick a mission field, and then do you, I guess, as a Reformed missionary, would you enter a field that's been dominated by Roman Catholics historically, or even you mentioned like setting up a certain type of church governance? Like, how specifically should we be targeting these areas, or should we be like, well, they have something that's, you know, good enough, I guess, or like close enough to what we would hope for? And then, how much, I guess, in the field, even when you get there, how much crossover is there working with other denominations or people who have been there before, other organizations like NGOs even are sometimes religious-esque. JF Yeah. So like there's plenty of people working in these foreign fields who used to be you know missionaries of sorts, and now are just working for NGOs, doing wells, healthcare, farming things. But very few people are trying to plant churches. TV Really. JF When I think about missions, when I think about the call of Christ, we can think about three aspects to the missionary work. One is, first of all, discipleship, working with people, bringing Christ to them so that they are saved, right? But if that's all you do, there's plenty of people who said, you know, I led you know these five kids to the Lord, right? But that's not far enough because we want to bring them onto the team, which is the body of Christ, and so we need to get the church functioning. So Paul tells Timothy to put elders in every town, you know. So that's church formation, and then out of from church formation, and you need church government to have that because you don't really have a church without church government because we're planting local churches and this is how people are discipled in the church and then from that point, so the first one discipleship, second forming churches with government in decency and good order right, and then third is what I would say is church nurturing. So part of what we can do, you know, maybe once we in a given area, there's enough indigenous people who know the Lord. They can do the first one. They can go out up the mountain. They know the language. They know the people. You know, we’re not Hudson Taylor. They are the guys who are hitting that spot, And once we've once people have been trained in leadership, you can have churches that learn good governance and the means of grace, preaching the word of sacrament. But part of our mission work can also be helping to nurture or train up churches or denominations or presbyteries, and that that I think is that's a good thing that we can be a part of. Like to look at areas, how can we promote building up that that knowledge base? Stuff like Christian counseling, just having a stronger biblical theology on all the doctrines of grace. You know, those kinds of things are, I think, are really needed. Often the church is an inch deep and a mile wide, or people have people have no real vision of the local church, they just have, you know, a walk with the Lord, but they don't have a walk with His people, right? TV That's a really good way to put it – an inch deep and a mile wide. Because how does that, like, that's the kind of feeling I get when I'm when I'm talking about world mission. It's like the inclination is to go that inch deep and mile wide, like you're like let's just reach everybody, because like, but I guess that's not, yeah. Do you think that that's not necessarily the way we should do it? JF Oh, we need to plant, we need to plant churches, which is not the invisible church. Paul didn’t plant invisible churches. He said to the church in Ephesus, or the church in Colossae, or to the Corinthian church. He planted local churches with real people on the ground with real names. They weren't invisible people, and they had you know visible manifestations of the fruit of the spirit, and they had visible manifestations of the fruit of evil as well, right? So we need to. that that's our calling, and that's that's a hard calling to focus there. That's a long term, a long term vision that's needed. So, but it's exciting, you know, really, really exciting. TV Yeah, and dangerous. And I guess in some ways, un not unfruitful, but un- Yeah, not a lot of thankfulness in that, or if you don't see fruit right away, it can be really unrewarding, or you know, just tough to work through. JF You know it is one of the most rewarding things to see people come to Christ and begin to love their brothers and sisters who they hated, and begin to forgive their enemies, and have them sitting in church, the wind is blowing through. The cows are walking by, and then you have Lord's Supper with them. And I remember one lady, her name was Joyce. She came to the Lord. I think she had like 13 or more kids. One of her boys was probably murdered, and just a horrible, challenging life. And she came to faith. And the way she said what happened, how she described being a Christian, is like “God has put, God has changed my face. God has put joy on my face. He's changed, changed me. He's given me a smile”, and I thought that is actually so true. Like when we walk through the village, often we can see who the Christians are by their face. TV Wow. JF And to see people loving and forgiving one another – that's the body of Christ, right? That, um, that is an incredible, um, it's an incredible witness, and it's so rewarding, and just experiencing love in the body of Christ in a context of so much hate and violence, I like the stark contrast between light and darkness is, was so strong there. Yeah, there's hard things, but you get to see beautiful things. So that that is so rewarding, and yeah, I love those people. I still pray for my old church over there. TV Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, you could definitely feel that, you know, yeah. I guess I gotta, we should probably wrap this up at some point, but I could talk to you all day about these. You can, I love to hear your stories, like Mark Penninga got to walk with you often, you said so it's you know he probably you know excited about all the stories got to hear from you when you were up in BC. But yeah I guess it's kind of a two part question. Like one would be the nations have in many ways kind of come to us in the West. Like there's been tons, especially in Canada, there's been tons of immigration. In a lot of ways, we're not even really living in a, I wouldn't say we're not living in a Western culture. We're living, but the culture is even changing. You can feel even here in in Alberta, which is you know pretty strong native culture to begin with, pretty strong redneck culture, so you can already feel that there's a real disconnect between us as you know Reformed people and the people who are living around us. There's this strong contingence of Middle Eastern, yeah, all sorts of Asian cultures. Like, how do you think about going to those people? And do you think like we should be spending more time in our backyard? Is that a world mission in the same sense, or is it more important to reach out to those who don't have local churches, at least around who are also active in that work? Yeah, I guess that's the first part of my question. But let's just hit that first. JF You know when I came back here, you go to a church, and that your church has a whole bunch of elders and deacons, and you have you know ladies fellowship or whatever your church is doing and youth group, and you realize how stacked your church is, how blessed you have it. You have so many people who are believers who have gifts, and then you have other churches around you. You know you might not totally agree with everything, but they're gospel churches, and all of our churches here in all of our communities can be reaching those people. But when you go to other parts of the world, there's actually no church there, right? That's where we were. There was no one there, and these people were going to die without knowing Christ. We went to places where no one even knew the name of Jesus, so an actual, basically an unreached people group in many ways. So those places we need to work, and in those places, there's also many places there's a spiritual hunger that, like we often don't know here. Here we have a lot of indifference to the word. There's places where people are so hungry for the word. We would go up on this one mountain, and they would say, “Why haven't you been here for a number of months? Where have you been? We need to hear the word of God”, you know, and so that, yeah, I think we need to like really think about reaching the unreached. Now that might be in our own community, and we can do that as churches, but we also have to have a vision for the world around us, and we are uniquely equipped with our resources to do that. And we have to kind of organize ourselves for it too. I think of during COVID when COVID ended in Uganda, we had been, we went to the schools that were opening up, and these are public government schools. And we went to the teach, and the people are largely from those various tribes that teach up there. They have, they have a respect for the church, and so we went up, we went to these schools, and there could be like a couple 1000 kids out of school, and we would go there and we would say, "Can we come and come on Tuesdays? Let's say and bring God's word?” And they'd say, "Hey, yeah, you come, but you be serious. You come at 10 o'clock. I'm telling you, don't be late.” Like okay, and you have like half an hour. So okay, yeah, they've totally bossed you around, and okay, well we'll do that. So we show up at not at 10 o'clock. We'll show up at like at 8:30 in the morning, drive up there with the Land Cruiser, and this is like a building out on the prairie. There's a couple big trees, just grasslands. You'd expect an elephant or a lion to come out of the grass, you know nothing else around, but there's kids everywhere, and they're in this you know concrete type building, and there's like one well at the borehole or whatever they call it, and you show up, and the teacher comes out. “Hey, you are here, you wait, let me bring the children. You go by the tree.” So they all come out at 8:30 and they'll let you teach the whole day, the whole morning. Wow! All these kids. So we got to do that, and the guys that we trained after COVID, they went to these schools, and we were reaching 1000s of kids for Christ. And the guys that I got to train – they are now, you know, bringing the word to these places. So the story of the OPC's mission work, it's still ongoing, but these kids first heard the gospel as young children, and the women who went to the woman missionaries who went into the village who knew the language, taught the basic Bible stories. They were raised up under the Word, and then they were later discipled. And now they're, 20 years later, one is being ordained as a pastor, and others are leaders in the church, bringing God's Word, and they're seeking to reach the next generation. It that has been like a 25 year process, with many people involved in it. And yeah, we praise the Lord that we got to be a part of that wonderful little story, and we, of God's redemption in Karamoja and the building up of his of his church, and we're seeing now this new generation really seeking to take leadership. And now we're in this place where we're now trying to more – well, I'm no longer there anymore – but those who are remaining in this more nurturing stage, not first time reaching the lost or church establishment that's still being worked on, but now we're trying to get into a more church nurturing stage as a mission, and actually looking for more opportunities. And there's many more opportunities throughout that whole area for missionaries to go, you know. TV Wow, it's cool. Do they readily those young guys who are now church leaders? Do they readily adopt that mission mindset of reaching out and pushing the gospel? JF They’re like a lot of us, there's some that really are seeking to do it, and then there's others who are lukewarm, and then there's some that have fallen away, right? So some of the guys that have fallen away… Actually, two Sundays ago, I got a letter from Africa, and I was off my pulpit that day, and the visiting pastor, who was a member in my church back in Telkwa, became a pastor, and he preached in my church, which was really special. He preached on the prodigal son in Panoka here, and that next day I got a letter from Africa. Sunday at Nakale Presbyterian Church, and one of the boys, now a man, came home from a life of being a prodigal son. The very next day, I got up, and he stood up in church at the end, and he said, "I am Judas. I am Jonah. I am the prodigal son. I, Pastor James, and all these guys – they taught me, and I stole from the mission. I stole the mission bicycles. I lied. I cheated. I forsook Christ”, and he went to the far country, quite literally. Went down country and lived a life apart from Christ, and he repented and he came back two Sundays ago. His name is Chegem Mark, and I pray for Chegem. You can pray for him. Anyone listening, I'd love it, but yeah, we part of nurturing the church is yeah, pray that the church can keep growing. And so some of these guys, they've been wayward and they're coming back and they've tasted the world, and the world is ultimately poverty. Might taste, be rich. Might be have a rich taste, but in the end, it leaves what is bitter and empty. And he came back to our church impoverished, but coming to Christ. And the pastor, Pastor Julius, on Sunday of Nakale Presbyterian Church, he asked Chagam, "Do you know how the prodigal son ends?” And Chagam couldn't remember. I'm like, "Why don't you know that?” But anyways, he couldn't remember. And the pastor, the people in the church, and the pastor-they reminded him. They said he got a ring on his finger, a new coat, and everyone said, "The father said, 'Rejoice with me, for my son that was lost has been found”, and that's the gospel. And so our guys over there, they're still learning. They're still struggling. They're tempted by the world. They're tempted by prosperity with poverty, and poverty's really hard. It's really discouraging. Takes the life out of you and it tests you. But my one of my spiritual sons last week that was lost came home, so my heart's still over there. TV That's amazing. JF You don't you don't leave that, and I think of Paul too. You read the New Testament letters in his heart for all the churches, and I have a little taste of that. And I really, yeah. I want them, I want that church to be strong for Christ. TV Is that difficult for you now? With this was this was kind of my last question I had for you. Like, do you feel like we get caught up here in our Western world with things that, for you personally, that feel less meaningful? Like we all get spun up with the media and you know the culture wars in the West, and obviously those are, I mean, we have podcasts on about issues like this all the time, and they're obviously important problems. But does that feel to you like at times just a little less important because you have seen what these other parts of the world are going through, like your heart is still over there a little bit, and you feel for these people in a different way than you know... Does some of these arguments and things in the West seem a little more trivial to you? JF Yeah, I think in the West we've lost. I don’t want to be overly judgmental, but… TV No, do it. That's what we're here for. JF We, um, we don't want to do missions because we don't want to suffer. We want to be comfortable and we want to be safe, and that's really bad. The Apostle Paul didn't do missions because it was safe. He did it to make people safe in Christ, and we have lost in the West largely our theology of suffering for Christ. We have lots of position papers in our denominations, on justification and all these things, whatever it is, it's all good. But to say, do we have a biblical theology of suffering, and are we embracing that for Christ? Right. When we came back from Africa here, everyone says, “We're so glad your home's safe”, and I understood that. We went through a pretty massive... we were attacked in Africa at one point, and we were ambushed, I was beaten with hammers all over my body and went through like a very significant PTSD trauma episode through that. TV Wow. JF I had one of those Pauline beatings, which I don't recommend anyone to have, but that was a really significant part of our time there, about halfway through. We got to, in many different ways, what Paul says to the Colossians: fill up the sufferings of Christ for His church. And I didn't choose that. My wife didn't choose it. My kids didn't. But it was part of our journey there, and the Lord used it to really show to the rest of the body there that church in Nakale a lot of different things, and also to teach us a lot of different things. But we were there to bring Christ to His people, and we're willing to suffer for Christ for His people. At one point, we nearly lost one of our kids out there through sickness, and I mean, this is all like huge topics. TV I was gonna say, we could talk for another five hours on this. Yeah, but it JF Yeah, but it was, you know, after we came back up to Karamoja, I was really, really struggling. It's in the middle of COVID, so under lockdowns in Canada, everything's crazy over here. Trucker convoys and everyone's in their world here, right? But we came up to Karamoja, and this had happened down country, close to the airport. And the people up in Karamoja, they saw that we didn't hightail it out, and we ministered in weakness to these people, and we entered into their poverty, so to speak, and that was a very rich experience. And to not, and just to be really depending on Jesus for health, for strength, for mental health, for courage. Our prayers were different. Some ways I wish I still could pray like I prayed back then. You know, and we come back here, and we're caught up in our own world. We're caught up in our own stuff, in our own busyness, and the world needs Christ, and we gotta, we gotta have a passion for him, you know, passion to pursue him, to be willing to suffer for him, you know, and to count it all joy. Like I think I got a little bit of a taste of that, to see God using our sufferings for Him and getting to grow through it, you know, growing in in perseverance and character and hope and yeah, it's hard to put in, it's hard to put into words all of that. TV I could just feel it in you that it's like, I just don't know. It's strange because it feels as if I can't relate. But you, like we just completed a few.. in our in our men's Bible study here in Calgary, we we've did we've studied Acts, then we studied Romans. Now we did First, and we're in middle of Second Corinthians. There's a lot of that, Paul's endurance through these things comes out, and yet you look at it as someone from the Western world a lot of times, and you don't know what to do with it because the suffering isn't the same, so we say things like, "Well, we're not persecuted in the same way, but you know, we have our own things, and the devil's working here in different ways.” And that's all true, but it's also like we don't… Do you feel like we even know here what that's what suffering is? What does suffering for the gospel mean? I guess it just doesn't mean the same thing. JF Yeah, it's here. I mean, and we have suffering with diseases and cancer, and you know, losses and challenges in our families. You know, at work, it's here. TV Like we suffer, we suffer because of the broken world, but for the gospel? A lot of times I feel like we're very, very comfortable, and… JF Yeah. TV I know personally, there's like a hesitation to, you know, when I was a kid, especially like when you see a presentation from a missionary and you say, "Is that going to be me one day?” And there's a big part of you that says, "That's just a yeah, that doesn't fit into the white picket fence life that everyone's sold here.” JF No, you know, Paul… I think it's in the chapter when he gets to Corinth is that Acts 18? I forget, but he gets there and he's gone through all these beatings, and then the Lord gives him a vision and says, "You won't get beaten in this town. I have many people here.” I don't know how long he was there, off the top of my head, he was there for a couple of years or something, but it's always that passage – pardon the pun – struck me because here Paul has, he's been beaten, you know. He's been left for dead. And I wasn't quite left for dead, but it was bad, you know. And then Paul gets to Corinth, and God says, "No more beatings while you're here.” And I thought, “I would love to have that. God, just tell me for the next while you're safe. You're not going to get beaten.” Right? And Paul got that, and I think that might have been a very special grace to him in that time, as he healed of his wounds, physical wounds. I think for me, it probably took like a year before my pain was gone and my knees and stuff, and psychological things. But guess what happened when Paul left Corinth? He crossed that boundary line, and he knew that promise was now over because he had left Corinth. TV You think Paul would have made that a 25 year ministry? JF Yeah, be a long-term missionary here in Corinth. But he stepped out, and it was for, you know, he was willing. He loved Christ. He wanted to make Christ known, and he wanted to see the church built up, right? He wanted to go to Rome. He wanted to go to Spain. And I think that forward thrust of you know wanting the kingdom of God to abound everywhere has to be that's Christ's mission, and that has to be our mission, our passion. And I think we have to really consider how can we organize ascending churches. How can we raise up our young people for this vision? And even if we're not going, how can we be good senders? How can we pray for churches? How can we, you know, pray for our missionaries? And missionaries aren't just, you know, the pastor, but you can have mission aid people going to support them, young people going, short-term stuff to equip to learn, and the beauty of it is, is you come back here, you can come back to North America, and you see these other people that have moved here, and you get an idea for their world, right? So what I'm discovering now is, you know, I meet Africans in the grocery store, wherever I am, and I can start talking to them about where they're from, and they immediately identify. And you realize, for me now, I realize that what's it like for them to see our world, right? What's it like for all these immigrants in Canada. How are they really looking at Canada? You know, and you ask them that question, like, so how is how is it like here? When you come from like Lagos, Lagos in Nigeria or Abuja or Nairobi or you know, what's it like here? Don't you think it's crazy? And what's Costco? And you start talking, and um, you can throw a little bit of Kiswahili at them or something, and they're like, "Hey, where are you from?” You know. And yeah, I'm finding now like it's really interesting to talk to immigrants here and just to get into their worldview, how they see our Canadian culture, and yeah, it's super interesting. TV Yeah, I guess it helps you mission to them too. Like even here. Man, James, really appreciate this. It's been eye opening. JF For what it’s worth. TV Yeah, all your struggles and everything. Yeah, it's amazing to hear what you went through, and I mean, just the encouragement of to the listeners and everybody to like be intentional about how we send and to consider going to experience the suffering for the name of Christ. JF The yeah, our mission field is right here, though, so we can learn learn here before you go over there. So TV Yeah, well, really appreciate it. Thank you so much for… JF yeah, you're welcome TV …for doing this with us. I have a newfound appreciation and just yeah, it's almost overwhelming to think about. Like you just have to really, really sit with it and ponder what happens overseas. And you know, like you said, we get so busy with our lives here, but don't let that be a reason to not look abroad and to spread the word. JF You know, a year ago, my church here in Panoka allowed me to go back to one guy that I got to teach that had graduated from seminary. His name is Timo, and I went back. I'd gone. I hadn't been there in two years, and I walked into our old house that we lived in, and it was like walking into kind of a haunted house. Our furniture, some of it was still there. Our bed was still there. It was like the body without the soul, without the spirit. TV Oh, wow. JF And, and that team that we left had to rebuild, it kind of collapsed a little bit, and they’re reforming which is good – Rinaldo’s not there anymore, you have to figure it out. TV I was gonna say, you might run into that in Edmonton with McDavid, so… JF Yeah, we won’t go there. But what I want to end with is, I walked through there and I thought it was almost like being in a dream. It was almost a dream. Had we really been here? Did we really do this? How did we do this? Like I looked at the place. I walked into the bedroom where we almost lost our daughter, right? And where she was so sick, and you know, so many memories come back, and so many challenges, and also so many joys, so much laughter. And I asked myself, like, how did we do this? I don't think I could do this again. I don't feel called here, and I realized – it was a special moment – I realized God did this. This wasn't me, right? This was God. God called me. God called our family for that time, and He called us. He called us to where we are now, and it's good. And we're serving Him now, here, we're happily here. We're God's blessing our work. We're building a team, working on the team. But it's the Spirit of God that equips us in our callings wherever we are. And that, to me, was just going back there and seeing that and being reminded of that, it's like God gave us strength for that during that time, and we have to trust Him. My wife, she said, when we went to Uganda, the thing she had to learn to give up was the – not control – she had to learn to give up the illusion of control because we can believe that we've got it, and that's a lie. And coming back here too, we can think we can take that illusion of control back into our hands. We're safe here in Canada. It's like you know. But we're in God's hands. Let's serve Him here with everything that we have, and trust Him, just the same we did over there. And the Spirit will, the Holy Spirit will lead us. And you know, we're obedient. You know, He can really bless that work as we depend on him. TV Yeah, yeah, that's lots to think about and ponder. JF Sorry I gave you too much. TV No, that's a that's a great place to leave it. Thanks everyone for listening. James, again, really appreciate that's gonna give me things to think about for weeks. Yeah, no, that's I'm sure many will. That's an amazing story, and yeah, all the all the best in Panoka and with your work now, and you know God's continued blessing there and in everything that you do. Again, appreciate it. JF Thanks for having us, and thank you for being willing to spread the work of Christ's mission, absolutely. TV Absolutely. From the from the basic comforts of my home, that's the, you know, the challenge here. So, thanks everybody. Outro Thanks for tuning into Real Talk. If this episode inspired you, please share it with a friend so you can continue this conversation in your own life. We encourage you to send us your feedback or let us know who you would like to hear on the podcast. You can email us at real [email protected] This episode is produced by Tyler Vanderwoude, Lucas Holtvluwer, and Mariah Tamminga in partnership with Reformed Perspective. Until next time, keep having real talk....

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In a Nutshell

Tidbits – July 2026

If Dad told only dinosaur jokes - Part II How can you tell a dinosaur from a peanut? Try lifting it up. If you can’t, it’s probably a dinosaur. (Though it might be a heavy peanut.) What’s the difference between a dinosaur and a pencil? A dinosaur is harder to sharpen. Why did the dinosaur cross the road? It was the chicken’s day off. What’s the difference between a dinosaur and a cup of coffee? A dinosaur doesn’t keep you awake at night. (Usually.) What’s red, has a long neck, and hates to be touched? A dinosaur with sunburn. How are dinosaurs and bluebirds alike? They both have wings. Except for the dinosaurs. What do you do with a green dinosaur? Wait until it ripens. What do you do with a blue dinosaur? Cheer him up. What do you do with a white dinosaur? Try not to lose him in the snow. Source: inspired by, and some borrowed from Charles Keller’s “Colossal Fossils: Dinosaur Riddles” How he learned he needed to preach Mark 2:28 Some years ago, on an early Sunday morning, a young Dutch pastor faced a quandary. A snowstorm had closed the roads between his house and the church and there seemed no way he could make it there to preach. But then he had an idea. The canal running behind his house went right to the church, so he could still make it there if he skated. But was that a good idea? Bringing the Word was important; however his church was very firm on Sunday observance, and skating was simply not an acceptable Sunday activity. He hemmed and hawed before finally deciding that if it was at all possible, he just had to conduct worship. So the pastor strapped on his skates, and though the wind was howling, he managed to speedily make his way down the frozen canal right to the church building. When he walked up the steps, he saw the congregation was already in place, and as he stepped in the door, the consistory was there waiting for him, grim expressions all. The elders weren’t pleased, but they liked their young pastor and weren’t eager to publicly rebuke him. So after some hurried discussion among the men, one elder asked the pastor a question: “Did you enjoy the skating, reverend?” “No,” he replied, “I didn’t enjoy it at all.” “Phew!” the consistory said as one. It was all right – skating on Sunday could be allowed, just so long as there was no joy in it! Source: adapted from Michael Hodgin's “1001 More Humorous illustrations for Public Speaking” Big Brother can’t be father or mother “We fear the government may be powerful enough to destroy families; we know that it is not powerful enough to replace them.” – Ronald Reagan Never read a Bible verse Mark Twain once quipped that a cat that’s sat on a hot stove will never do so again… but he’ll never sit on a cold one either. In other words, that the lesson the cat learned had been applied broadly, even to circumstances where it isn’t warranted. That notion – that we shouldn’t overlearn our lessons – has biblical backing. God regularly tells us to do one thing in one place, and nearly the opposite elsewhere. The starkest contrast is Proverbs 26:4-5, where God begins with why we shouldn’t answer a fool (lest we appear like him), before, in the very next verse, telling us why we must answer a fool (lest he appear wise in his own eyes). So when should you do which? That’s where wisdom is required. Another contrast? Solomon’s advice to be like the hard-working ant who diligently plans ahead (Prov. 6:6-8), and Jesus’ encouragement not to be anxious about tomorrow (Matt. 6:25-34). Contradictions? Not at all – just different lessons for different circumstances. Solomon’s advice was for the lazy, and Jesus’ correction was to those fixated on the here and now rather than on God. So don’t be like Twain’s cat who let one incident shape its whole understanding. God gave us a Book, not just a verse, so we should be sure to never read just a Bible verse – read His Word in the context of what else God thought it important for us to know. Know your history "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the Government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian!" – commonly attributed to Henry Ford, but without any clear sourcing. Whether from him or not, the truth it captures makes clear the foolishness of socialist schemes. Have scientists created life? Every few years media outlets share a startling scientific advancement about how a group of scientists have "created life." A couple recent examples include J. Craig Venter back in 2010 for creating "the world's first synthetic life form," and Elizabeth Strychalski and her crew in 2021 who "crafted a single-celled synthetic organism that divides and multiplies just like the real thing." Why is this so important? Because there's only two explanations for how life began: God, or godless. And these supposed "creations of life" are seen as steps towards coming up with a godless explanation. So have scientists actually created life? No. They've tinkered, placing engineered DNA in already living cells. So, they began with life and ended up with life.  And as Jonathan Sarfati noted: "It took an enormous amount of intelligence to make this cell, and they borrowed a lot of information from already-existing cells. In particular, they synthesized the genome of Mycoplasma mycoides, with 1.08 million base-pairs (bp)3 and about 985 genes.... it cost US$40 million and 200 man-years to produce." So with their brilliant minds, supercomputers, lab equipment, refined chemicals, all sorts of intentionality, and a living cell to start with they've managed to create life. Which is supposed to show us something about how it all could have happened accidentally and unintelligently? Tell that to a devoted evolutionist and they'll probably tell you it's only a matter of time before scientists figure it out. But time hasn't proven to be their friend. When Darwin proposed his theory, he thought the cell was made up of "membrane, nucleus, and nucleolus" which was all that could be seen under his day's microscopes. The ribosomes, Golgi apparatus, mitochondria and other microscopic machines were missed entirely, and the nucleus was a black box – unknown and disregarded – which made it a lot easier to ignore God's fingerprints evident all over the cell's design. But since then every new discovery has shown how much more complicated single-celled life is than previously realized. That means the more we are discovering, the more and more impossible abiogenesis – life from non-life – is revealed to be. And the more obvious the need for a great Genius to be behind it all. Just be yourself, they say There’s a story told about Abe Lincoln, that when he was at a hometown soiree, he approached the lady of his interest and told her, “Mary Todd, I want to dance with you in the worst way.” And after a turn around the floor together, she could only say, “You wanted to dance in the worst way, and you certainly did.” Why not fund my educational trip to Europe too? Our professor had written for the local daily newspaper for decades, and explained that before universities started offering journalism programs, his newspaper would put all their new hires through a 3-month training program. When journalism degrees became a thing, the paper cut back their own training program to just a month or two, and required all applicants have a journalism degree. So a young man or woman who wanted to be a journalist now had to invest 2 to 4 years of their life, and a lot of their own money and taxpayer money too on tuition, to get a piece of paper that would save the newspaper just a month or two of training. That doesn’t math. Meanwhile the government could talk about how it was directing so much new money towards post-secondary institutions so we could have a more educated workforce. But at what cost? As has been said: “If your college degree doesn’t have enough value for you to pay it off, it certainly doesn’t have enough value for me to pay it off.” Boys, do you want this to happen to you? Dinosaurs didn't read. And now they're extinct. When John MacArthur visited a philosophy class… We, as Christians, are called to walk humbly (Micah 6:8). But let’s not get confused about who or what we are being humble about. It’s us, not God. That’s a point worth pausing on. We so often get things wrong and muddled, so we have good reason to be humble. But not about God or His Word. Yet somehow, there are all sorts of topics the Bible is crystal clear on that we’re still acting quite “humbly” about, reluctant to speak up in His Name. It’s time to get confident. For inspiration, here’s a story from the late John MacArthur. This is a man who’d proclaim God’s Truth just as boldly sitting across from a newscaster as he would standing up in a pulpit, but the point here isn’t his example, but his basis – he had God’s Word. "As a Christian, you and I share this in common: I see things clearly. I see the world clearly. In fact, I often wonder why I'm not on more programs giving the right answer to everything. It's all very clear to me. Everything is clear to me. I understand where the world came from, where it's going. I understand all of that. I understand why things happen the way they happen. I understand life and death and life after death and heaven and hell and morality and immorality. I understand it all. I understand why the world is the way it is. Why people act the way they act. Am I particularly intelligent? No. Am I particularly wise? No. I just have the mind of Christ here in this book. “I remember one time, years ago, being invited to Cal State Northridge to speak to the philosophy class and the professor was a former rabbi who liked to chew on an occasional fundamentalist. And so, I was going to be the bone for that experience. I went to the class and I was supposed to talk on the subject of Christianity and culture. Well, I didn't want to talk about Christianity and culture. I wanted to talk about the gospel. I think I opened by saying, something like, ‘….I know this is a philosophy class, and I know that you're searching for the truth, and I'm here to bring your search to an end.’ “That was enough to lose them all. They looked like somebody had shot off a gun in the room. So, I said: ‘I'm here to tell you the truth. Tell you the truth about the origin of the universe. Tell you the truth about why the universe holds together. Things that Einstein couldn't figure out. I'm here to tell you where the universe is going in the future, how it will end. I'm here to tell you about life and death and the afterlife, morality, everything you want to know. I'm here to tell you all of it.’ “And when I said this, the rabbi professor was as stunned as everybody else. “I said, ‘But no matter what I say, you're not going to understand it and you're not going to believe it.’ “And one student at that moment spoke for all of them and said, ‘How do you know? How do you know we won't understand it? We won't believe it?’ “I said, ‘Because there's a prerequisite. For you to understand this, you have to have been transformed by faith in Jesus Christ so that your understanding is opened.’ “To which he replied, ‘Well, how does that happen?’ “And I said, ‘Good. Now we'll talk about how you become transformed by Jesus Christ.’ And so I went into the gospel, which was no small irritation to the professor. I remember an extended time of sharing the gospel with some of the students out in the hall after the class was over. A number of them came to church and a couple of them actually joined our ministry here and professed Christ. The Word brings light to absolutely everything." ...

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Assorted

Ruin and restoration and our part

When the world falls into spiritual darkness and all you see around you is chaos and misery, what then? Kin Jong-un and Vladimir Putin meeting in China last year – North Korea has been supplying Russia with troops for their war with Ukraine since as early as 2024. 1 Isaiah, in chapter 24, spoke of how “The earth is utterly broken, the earth is split apart, the earth is violently shaken.” Was he speaking only to the people of his day about the earth being broken? Was he judging the nations of his time about the world being violently shaken? Or was he also speaking to the nations of the world today? Are our present lives, and the lives of those around us, in a state of rebellion against Almighty God? Ruins all around Most people enjoy eating a fine smorgasbord. As a matter of fact, the Chinese Mandarin restaurant is one of my favorite places to dine. To walk by the mouth-watering dishes displayed, and to anticipate dining, is delightful. To deposit a little scoop of this and a tad of that on a warm, hand-held plate, creates thankful moments. There are other smorgasbords displayed to us, however, which do not generate pleasure. The world is actually a smorgasbord right now – a literal smorgasbord of brokenness – of ruin. No matter where we turn in the newspapers, no matter what we turn to on our laptops, there are ruins we can choose to read about, or literally see misery portrayed on our screen. Grim headlines underline this actuality. Our plate of daily current events is filled with somber, unappetizing incidents. Is this where Canada’s Bill C-9 will take us? Finnish Member of Parliament, and former leader of the Finnish Christian Democrats, Päivi Räsänen was found guilty of hate speech earlier this year by her country’s Supreme Court for a booklet she and a Lutheran bishop co-authored in 2004 opposing same-sex “marriage.” 2 For example, it has of late been disclosed that the North Korean president, Kim Jong Un, is supporting a policy that requires soldiers to commit suicide on the battlefield to avoid capture, while fighting Russia’s war against Ukraine. For example, it has been verified that twenty-nine Christians were massacred in the Islamic state of Nigeria, during a soccer match in the spring of this year, 2026. The attack took place on a Sunday, included the torching of a church, and most of the victims were youths and women. For example, earlier this year of 2026, the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario, Canada, investigated a Dr. MacLean of London, Ontario. Dr. MacLean diagnosed a man with inflammatory bowel disease while sitting with him in a car outside a Tim Horton’s. Afterwards, he personally drove this man, who was prone to depression, to a MAiD location where his life was ended. Dr. MacClean was only verbally cautioned by CPSO. For example, Canadian Bill C-9, also known as the Combatting Hate Act, passed the House of Commons, Senate and received Royal Assent. It removed the religious defence to hate speech in the Criminal Code. For example, the horrible tragedy of the earthquakes which have hit Venezuela. Venezuelan morgues are filling up rapidly. At the end of June 2026, the actual death toll was reported to be more than 2,300. However, the projected number of people missing and presumed dead, is running into many thousands more. Dead children arrive at morgues, so badly decomposed that they are unrecognizable. These smorgasbord current events detail a world that is a far cry from the “It was good” phrase, in Genesis 1. They reflect a world fallen into sin. Are we part of God’s restoration? Should we, therefore, mourn and lament over these present evil times? It is a fact, that like Jeremiah lamented, it is not a bad thing for us also to weep over worldwide sin. However, it is also a good thing to sit down and examine ourselves, to study our own hearts carefully, to make sure that our motives, our interactions with others and our priorities, are not in any way contributing to the evil around us. For example, do we encourage our next-door neighbors to live without fear? Does our joy in the prospect of life eternal, reflect in loving our neighbors, in bringing them both soup and the Gospel? For example, do we speak openly about these disasters with people we meet? Do we know our Bible well enough to testify with a smile that “God is our refuge and our strength” and that “therefore we will not fear” (Ps. 46)? When those nearby have a cast-down soul, can we boldly, like the Reformers before us, boost the spirits of those around us with personal anecdotes of answered prayer and songs of cheer? It is said of Luther, who loved the 46th Psalm dearly, that when his companions were cast down because of the seeming strength of the opposition, he would say: “Come, let us sing the Forty-Sixth Psalm, friends.” For example, do we testify to those dying in pain on a hospital bed, Jesus’ words in John 14 that their hearts ought not to be troubled? And can we explain why their hearts ought not to be troubled? Can we percolate the steadfast faith of Job to friends? Can we say with certainty to others, “I know that my Redeemer lives”? The evangelist, John Wesley, died on March 2,1791, at the age of 87. As he lay dying, with a group of friends gathered around his bed, Wesley’s last words were from Psalm 46, “The best of all is, God is with us.” He repeated this as he lifted his arms: "The best of all is, God is with us.” My niece’s daughter, Amy, died more than a month ago. She was thirty-five years old and had special-needs – but a person who knew and loved the Lord Jesus. A small story was told of her during the funeral. Amy had a friend whose name was Melissa. Melissa could not speak. During a Special Olympics day for those with special-needs, there was a race – a walking race from one point to another. Amy’s friend was participating in that race. But as she began to walk with all the other contestants, she suddenly froze. She seemed to be afraid and not able to move. Amy saw that her friend was afraid and walked away from the sidelines where she was watching and came up to Melissa. She took Melissa’s hand and told her it was all right. And Amy and Melissa finished that race together. And though this world, with devils filled, should threaten to undo us, we will not fear, for God has willed His truth to triumph through us. ***** 1 Photo credit: The President of the Russian Federation website www.kremlin.ru, and used under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. 2 Photo credit: Modified from a picture by Lauri Heikkinen and the Finnish Government and used under a CC by 2.0 Attribution 2.0 Generic license....

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Politics

Alberta separatism: is it wrong to go?

I have deep roots in Alberta, having lived there for the first 30+ years of my life. I was also heavily involved in politics through a half dozen different campaigns, and during those years I thought long and hard about what a better Alberta might look like. I have since been separated from my home province by mileage and decades. While I am still a very interested observer, the distance allows me to act as more of an impartial observer than I would have been able to be two decades ago. I’m going to try here, to make a limited point – that it would be okay for Alberta to go. Not that it should go, but just that going is an option on the table that Christians can consider. Even as I think the referendum is well worth talking about, I don’t think it has any chance of success. A June 5 Ipsos poll had only 19% of Albertans interested in starting the process, and only 18% who actually wanted to go. Angus Reid had support as high as 35% for starting the process, but that was back in May, and their guesstimate was the highest of all the pollsters. So, I’m not writing to sway voters one way or the other. The reason I wanted to write is because some of the issues brought up are universal – they apply not just for Albertans trying to figure out how to vote, but whenever Christians are making any decision. Kevin DeYoung tackled decision-making in his excellent book Just Do Something, so, inspired by him, here are a handful of questions to help shape a Christian’s decision-making process. Q.1 HAS GOD LEFT THE DECISION UP TO ME? Another way to phrase this question would be, is this a wrong/right matter? If it is, then we know what to do – we need to do whatever it is that God commands. Screwing up the courage to do so might be hard, but if we know it is a moral matter then we already know what we should do. God’s will be done. However, as Kevin DeYoung notes in Just Do Something, a lot of our decisions aren’t so simple, precisely because they aren’t about wrong or right. God leaves some pretty big decisions up to us: what kind of job we’ll pursue, where we’ll live, who we will marry, whether we should partner up to start a company. Big stuff. Huge stuff! We can and should look to God for guidance, and talk to our parents and the other wise people He’s gifted us. We can come to Him in prayer and ask Him to make our motivations pure. We can look to His word for wisdom. But then it is up to us; He gives us a decision to make. Take marriage as an example. You can look over every page of the Bible, and you just aren’t going to find the name of the person God has in mind for you. He’s left it to you, to figure out who you have in mind for you. Now, you can’t marry an unbeliever because He’s said we should not be unequally yoked (2 Cor. 6:14). He also offers guidance on the kind of man or woman you should be impressed by. But, if a young man, Timmy, has a couple of those kind of ladies sitting in the pews nearby him each Sunday, then it will be up to him to make a choice. And up to whoever Timmy asks to make her own. Now let’s direct the question above to the separation referendum: is this a matter of wrong and right? The possible answers to the question can go a few different ways: 1. Yes it is, which is why we have to vote against 2. Yes it is, so we have to vote for separation 3. No it is not, so God has left the decision up to us. So which is it? Before trying to answer that, let’s clear away one distraction. That something can be done for the wrong reasons is not proof that it is wrong. Mankind has the sad ability to make just about anything immoral if we try. So, as noted, Timmy could have a couple of wonderful godly young women to consider – either could be a good God-honoring choice. But if he asks out Helen only because she has a cool car he’d like to drive, his selfishness and disregard for her heart would turn a legitimate action into a sinful one. That doesn’t change the fact that Helen is a great girl. So, for our purposes, that people could have bad motivations for voting for (or against) separation is not what we’re trying to figure out. It is no surprise that it could be done sinfully because anything can be done sinfully. But what we’re trying to figure out is whether seeking to leave Canada is sinful all by itself, or whether it’s something God leaves for us to decide. To that end let’s ask a couple of clarifying questions. A) Is there something about leaving that is wrong? Some Christians have invoked Romans 13 to argue that because God calls us to be in submission to our authorities it would be wrong for Alberta to remove itself from being under the authority of the federal government. It’s a good idea to go to Scripture, but let’s dig a little deeper and consider what sort of submission God speaks of here. Under a dictatorship, as Paul and most of the world lived under when this was written, they had no means of changing their leaders. But in a democracy, we do. So, while we know God has placed the Liberals in charge of Canada, we don’t think it would be wrong for us to try, via democratic means, to remove ourselves from being under their authority the next time an election is called. We’d likely thank God for such a result. So, how then, is it so very different for Alberta, via democratic means, to seek to replace this authority over them? Can we characterize such a vote as rebellion against, or disrespect for God’s appointed authorities? No, because, after all, this is simply following the process via the means those authorities laid out. This is an important point – what submission involves – that often gets confused, such that some Christians will characterize taking the government to court as disrespectful, because, again, didn’t God put them in authority over us? But Paul used the courts (Acts 25), and could do so while writing Romans 13, because those courts and that process were a part of the very authority he was in submission to. And what we have in the separation referendum is another government-given process that we can access in submission. B) Would it be wrong not to go? Or in other words, should Christians feel obligated to vote for the referendum? While I think there are reasons that could be offered for leaving, that’s not the same thing as saying Christians must choose to go. To go back to Timmy and his marriage prospects, that there are reasons for him to ask out Susan doesn’t mean he has to. There are, after all, other possibilities to consider, including Helen. So would it actually be wrong to stay? I think that would be a very tough case to make but let’s for the sake of argument, make a hypothetical case where it wouldn’t be so tough. Let’s imagine that the federal government was evil – it was murdering a quarter of its citizens before they were even born, and was now going after the elderly and disabled too. We won’t find that hard to imagine, because that is what’s happening right now. Now let’s imagine Alberta was ruled by wise godly Christians who sought to honor God, and were desperately trying to stop the federal government from pushing abortion and euthanasia in their province but they just couldn’t so long as the province was still under the federal thumb. In those circumstances would it be wrong to stay? Under those circumstances, I think we might well conclude it would be wrong, based on just how many unborn and elderly and disabled lives could be saved if Alberta left. But those aren’t the circumstances we have, are they? Even Alberta at its best is far from godly. Danielle Smith has no qualms about abortion, and euthanasia is paid for by provincial coffers with no protest. Even where the province is out of step with the rest of our Liberal country, it is only a half-step, with the premier’s stance against transgenderism a good example. Yes, she defended kids from this mutilation, but at the very same time she was recruiting doctors from Quebec to better enable confused Albertan adults to mutilate themselves. So this is not some black and white choice between an evil and a godly government. And as such, I don’t think there is a clear case to be made that Alberta must go either. Which would mean God is leaving the decision to us. Q.2 HOW IMPORTANT IS THIS? We make a million decisions every day, and not all of them deserve the same amount of attention. So we need to treat things proportionately. If you are going to buy a new car, that deserves more of your time and maybe prayerful consideration than if you’re buying a coffee. Though if you’re buying a coffee every day, that could warrant some consideration too, because that’s now become a bigger budgetary matter. But not everything is big. If you’re trying to decide between toast and cereal this morning, it’s not worth much brain space. Don’t take forever deciding – that’d be wasting the time that God has entrusted to your care. So, we do need to treat big things as big, but also treat small things as small. And I’d make the case that for the vast majority of us, the separation referendum shouldn’t be a big thing. Why? First, there’s every reason to think the separation vote is going to lose in a landslide. So, give it enough time to go cast your vote, but there are a lot of matters likely to actually happen that are, therefore, more deserving of your attention. Second, even if separation were to happen, would it solve any of our most pressing political problems? No. If it were only the Alberta government in power, God’s people would still need to be just as busy standing up for the unborn, the elderly, and the disabled. So, this isn’t nothing; but it isn’t the big way forward that will save Alberta either. We can give it more brain space and passion than our toast vs. cereal dilemma, but for both practical and prioritization reasons, should it get all that much more? Q.3 ARE MY MOTIVATIONS PURE? As noted, we can do the right thing for the wrong reasons. That’s why Kevin DeYoung suggests (again, in his excellent book Just Do Something) that when we’re making the very decisions that God has left up to us – what job we’ll take, whether we’re going to move, whether we should buy that gaming system – a good prayer we can bring to Him is to ask that He make our motivations pure. So, it’s important that Christians don’t vote for separation with a middle finger in the air aimed at Ottawa. But in our call to love our neighbors as ourselves, someone might vote for separation thinking of what a helpful example a free Alberta could be to the rest of Canada, showing what could be done with a different approach. One Albertan might vote for separation thinking that if only we stop those equalization payments, Albertans, and more specifically him, will now be able to live a life of leisure, rolling in all those extra billions. But another voter might well want separation to end those equalization payments so that the federal government will stop incentivizing people to live where jobs are hard to come by. They could vote out of concern for their neighboring Canadians who are getting harmed by this government program. So, the same act – the same decision – could be done in submission or defiance of God, based on our own motivations. Let’s pray, then, that God be honored in all that we do. Q.4 IN MY ESTIMATION, IS IT WISE? So where do we land when a matter isn’t wrong or right, when we have given it its due consideration, and after we’ve questioned our own motivations? Then we arrive at the point where we have to decide for ourselves whether it is the wise thing to do. Wisdom can be sought in consultation. Ask your parents. Read relevant articles. Debate things with your friends. But it’ll be up to you. CONCLUSION I’m not going to make a case for separation or against, but I hope I’ve made a good case for Christian liberty. And in doing so, I hope I’ve also made the case for charity towards your brothers and sisters who are voting the opposite way you are. We do need to vote to God’s glory. But what I’m arguing here is that in this referendum, that will be done more through the motivation and manner in which we vote, than in what direction we cast our ballot. Honoring God is more than submitting to His will, but certainly not less. When He has expressed His will, then we need to submit no matter what it might cost to follow Him. But we can be bold too, when He leaves the decision-making up to us, knowing that our Heavenly Father will be pleased with whatever we might decide, just so long as we are trying to please Him....

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News

Nearly 60% of violent crime cases now being stayed or withdrawn

“Justice delayed has become justice denied,” concluded a recent report from The Hub about the amount of time it is taking for criminal justice cases to be completed. Digging into the most recent data available across Canada, the report found that the median amount of time it takes to complete a case – from first appearance to a final decision – has increased 60 percent in just eight years. It’s gone from averaging around 4 months – varying from 121 to 124 days – for the 8 years preceding 2016, to now being well over 6 months, or 198 days for 2023/24. There are many costs to delaying justice, with a big one being guilty people set free because they haven’t been offered a trial within the “reasonable time” promised in the Charter of Rights. The same report found that over the same time period, there has been a corresponding increase in the number of cases that have been stayed or withdrawn. That means no finding of guilt or innocence has been reached. As The Hub’s David Snow reports: “Focusing on Canada outside Quebec , the proportion of criminal cases that were stayed or withdrawn increased from just under 35 percent in 2007/08 to 40 percent by 2019/20. The increase accelerated sharply after the pandemic, to the extent that more than 50 percent of criminal cases outside Quebec now end without a determination of guilt or innocence.” This is particularly the case for violent crimes, where now nearly three in five cases are stayed or withdrawn. As a result, fewer people are being found guilty, dropping from 63 percent to 46 percent. This isn’t because there are more acquittals. In fact, of the 228,425 adult court cases in 2023/2024: • 105,371 were found guilty • 118,265 were stayed or withdrawn • only 2,442 were acquitted God, who is perfectly just, calls us to image His justice. “Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to act" we are instructed in Proverbs 3:27. And as we read in Jeremiah 21:12, it must be done promptly. “Administer justice every morning; rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed.” So the Charter of Rights’ call for trials in a “reasonable time” is good – we don’t want people who’ve never been convicted, languishing in jail for years on end before they even have a trial. Imagine if you are innocent, and you’re made to wait in jail for even “just” 4 months. This needs to be fixed....

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Entertainment

“What can I do?” Part II

35 more screen-alternatives ***** For our first screen-fast in 2025, we offered up 35 ideas for great activities you and your family can do with your screen-free moments, minutes, hours, and days. As we get set for another fast, we have another opportunity to make a course-correction in our lives when it comes to where our hearts, minds, and eyes are directed. We’re back with 35 more activities, including some ideas from people who did the screen-fast last summer. But first, let’s start with one of their testimonials on why it is worth taking the screen-fast plunge: “I somewhat reluctantly signed up for the screen-fast as my wife and kids were participating, but reflecting on it now, I can see God's hand working through them and the screen-fast. “I spent more time reading the Bible and additional study material, and more time in prayer and reflection. I was able to think more clearly after the first few days as the cheap distraction of screens was gone. This gave me time and focus to think through issues at work which I've been contending with for around a year and come to difficult decisions there that I had perhaps been avoiding. My time was better spent in devotions, exercise, conversation, family activities, and time in God's creation. I felt much better mentally, physically, and spiritually at the end of the ten days. “I intend to do this screen-fast again in the future and strongly encourage anyone who has not done it to do so and aim to grow in service of our gracious God.” What follows are 35 suggestions, gathered from RP readers and staff, for what you can do with all your extra screen-free time! Make God first Bible-in-a-year is easier – “My husband and I also had more time to work on our ‘Bible-in-a-year’ readings in the evenings as well as more time to journal and read some fiction.” Devoted devotions – “I started each day with devotions rather than reaching for my phone and therefore skipping devotions didn’t happen anymore.” Remembering to pray – “Helped to remind me to pray every time I went to tap an ‘earbud’.” Break, and bake, bread Rediscover dinner – “We had meals at the kitchen table instead of in the living room while watching YouTube.” Hold a tasting party – It doesn’t need to be fancy. Kids could find it fun to make and sample 3 different kinds of macaroni with a couple of different ketchups. Or have a soda sampler, using shot glasses, teaching your littles to “clean their palates” before sampling the next. Twists on reading a good book Pay your kids to read what you want – Some kids won’t read, and others only read a certain sort of book. If you’re spending thousands on Christian education, maybe a few hundred could be devoted to upgrading your children’s summer reading by paying them to read the books you really want them reading. Maybe it’s an old classic like Pilgrim’s Progress (but be sure you have a copy with updated English) or a great Christian biography you loved. Would a couple bucks motivate them? Maybe a fiver? This wouldn’t be a great idea long-term – we don’t want them thinking reading is a job – but for the 10 days of the screen-fast maybe it’d be just right. All together now – Try reading a picture book together – maybe one by Mo Willems about Piggie and Gerald, but any heavy-on-dialogue book would do. Then assign each family member and friend a character. Give them a few moments to create the character’s voice. Mom or dad can act the part of the narrator, and you are ready for a dramatic performance. Library treasure hunt – Pick an animal you want to know more about, and then head to the library to research all about it. Everyone needs to choose their own animal, read up, and present your findings in a few days. Best done with adult oversight, or when your kids are able to see through most nature books’ evolutionary nonsense, and can see God’s fingerprints evident in their new favorite critter. Love the neighbor next to you Only head up in the room – “Quite often if you're sitting in a waiting room, someone will strike up a conversation with you, because you're available and willing to talk. You may have an impact on someone else's day. Smile and give eye contact!” Howdy! – Go for a walk and talk, chatting up all the neighbors you meet. Paint party – Paint the opening question and answer of the Westminster or Heidelberg Catechisms on your garage door. Then spend extra time outside, with your head up, ready for any conversations that may come. Outdoor games night – Hold a games night on your front lawn and invite passersby to join in. Make sure they are simple short games, to make it easiest. Be contagious Show, don’t tell – “Over the days slowly joined me in some of my non-screen pursuits, doing jigsaw puzzles and chatting over cups of tea.” “We had family come for summer holidays, and they willingly partook (kids too)! Fishing and bike rides at 7 am rather than cartoons…win!” Start a “What I wouldn’t have seen” journal – Every time a family member sees something they know they wouldn’t have seen if they’d been on a screen, they should write it down in this journal. It may be quite the collection before the screen-fast is done! Actually fix things All-in hour – Your honey-do list is getting long? Pick one hour each day for everyone to just get at whatever needs to be gotten. Dishes piling up? That door squeaking? It’s so much more motivating to work, when no one can shirk. One room at a time – Each day, a different room. You’re picking a target, not promising yourself perfection. So pick a room, get help, and get what you can done in a set amount of time. Then tomorrow, move on to the next room whether you’re done this one or not. Gaming together Race remote control cars – “The quality time together was definitely better as we played cards, drove RCs at the park and made homemade cards.” Rebound for your bro or sis – “Our whole family did a lot more reading, board game playing, and shooting hoops…. I was impressed to see them doing Sudokus, reading, looking out the window, and playing cards with each other.” Embrace the boredom Be bored – “My 10-year-old said that she found more space to be creative when the computer and TV was off.” Tackle a “shower thought” – It’s no wonder so many of us get our best ideas in the shower as there’s nothing else for our brain to do in there but think. Now don’t just think about it; use your extra time to turn an idea into reality. Enjoy your spouse Go on walks – “It helped me reconnect with my wife. Instead of sitting on the couch consuming content in the evenings, we went for more walks and had more time to talk about what was going on.” Go to bed at the same time – It can be hard to connect if you’re falling asleep to a device. But if you turn off the distractions, you can tune into your spouse, and vice versa. “My best recommendation for others would be to eliminate phones from your bedroom. Reading my Bible nightly is way more likely to happen when Instagram is more than a click away. That Christian influencer's advice might be insightful, but God's Word will not return empty (Is. 55:11).” Wash the dishes together – A dishwasher is a lovely thing, but it’s sweet teamwork when a couple divvies up the washing and drying. In our busy lives, this short time right after dinner is still usually open and available, not just to work, but to flirt. Connect with the kids Backyard camping – Pitch the tent, get out the flashlights, and if you can, get some s’mores made. And when it’s time to sleep, have dad or mom read a story, or share a childhood adventure. Game-night marathon – Play your kids’ favorite board or card game as many times in a row as they like, even into the wee hours of the night. More painting Untouched canvas – If your house has a big blank wall somewhere, do something about it. With some painter’s tape, line out, and then paint in, a humungous rectangular frame that you and your friends or family are now going to fill in with your own beautiful artistry. Try, try again – Get small, inexpensive canvases from the store and paints, and paint your masterpiece. Then, tomorrow, paint over it. Continue until you’ve got something you love. Help a widow – Organize a painting party (painting the fence, etc.) for a widow. Challenges Family read-a-thon – Make up your own rules, but here’s something you could try. Mark off a sheet of paper divvying each day in hours and put it on your fridge. Every family member writes down how many (if any) pages they’ve read that hour. The one who gets the most pages in that hour gets a point. Most points in a day gets a small prize. Most points over the 10 days gets to have mom and dad pay for a book of their choosing. Wall of gratitude – Every hour you can write down on an index card something you are thankful for. Then tape that card to a wall. You can only do one an hour, and if you miss an hour, you can’t catch up. Each thankful card has to be original – no repeated thanks for your spouse or children, etc., no matter how grateful you are. The point is for us all to see how many different ways God is blessing us. For fun, get a pack of different color index cards, and maybe use some color pens to draw word art or a picture on each one. There are roughly 160 awake hours over the 10-day screen-fast, so see just how full you can fill your wall of gratitude. Exercise eke-up – Set a goal, any goal. Want to be able to run for half an hour? Try running for just a tenth of that on day 1 – just 3 minutes. Then add a tenth for day 2, and run 6 minutes. Keep adding a tenth a day and by day 10 you’ll be running 30 minutes. Was that too ambitious? Then start again back at the step before it got hard and cut your increments in half. Try this same, slow-and-steady, super-small-steps approach to whatever exercise (push-ups, planking, swimming, a stretching routine) you want to get better at. A pizza a day – Without a doubt, there is no more perfect food, what with the amazing variety of ways it can be prepared and varied. Do your research beforehand – when the Internet can still be a resource – or check out a few pizza-making cookbooks from your local library. Then plot out what kind of pizza you’ll make for each day. Preparations can involve making lists for the grocery store, and recruiting volunteers to craft each pie. Bike where you’ve never been – Find an old-fashioned paper map and use it to plot out places in your town you’ve never biked. Then head off and see what there is to see (avoiding any dangerous spots, of course) and afterward mark it off on your map, filling in every street you’ve biked up or down. Stretch your attention span Read for an hour straight – Note down on a piece of paper a mark for every time you were tempted to stop reading and look at your phone. Watch a documentary carefully – This might seem a bit of a cheat, but being screen-free is more about intentionality than abstinence. So pick a good one deliberately (we’ve got plenty of suggestions) and watch it that way too, with your thumb on the pause button so it can be stopped and discussed. Illustrations by Hannah Penninga....

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Entertainment

“What can I do anyways?”

35 screen-alternative ideas ***** You can’t beat something with nothing (as Eph. 4:28, Matt. 12:30, and Matt. 12:43-45 make clear). That means if you want to do RP's 10-day screen-fast challenge July 21-30, it isn’t realistic to expect to manage without your phone if you haven’t made plans for what you’ll do the next time you’re tempted to reach for it. So here are ideas for what you and your family can do with your screen-free moments, minutes, hours, and days. Plan away Short-term - Using the list below and a brainstorming session with family or friends, create a list of activities for your 10 days of screen-free time. Medium-term - pull out a big piece of craft paper and along with your family create a list of items you’d love to do this summer. Long-term - Spend an hour writing out a list of 50 goals, big or small, for your future. Share and refine it with input from family and friends. On the homefront Clean one room at a time – you have 10 days, so what if you took on one room a day, and gave it the “clean, organize, and de-clutter” you’ve been meaning to do just about forever? Honey-do list - make your better half happy by fixing something. Hospitality Host a dinner for friends and do it up with candles. Make meal prep part of the entertainment by learning to make something new. Sushi anyone? How about calzones? Put on a games night, and invite your friends to bring along their favorites. Invite someone you might not normally interact with. Focus on games that allow for conversation (the less intense sort). Search for “board games” on ReformedPerspective.ca for our suggestions. Reconnect Is your family spread across the continent, or around the world? Pick up the phone and chat away – phone one person a day. Everyone loves a letter – make a package to mail away to grandma and grandpa. Read something awesome While your local library likely has too much weird stuff to want to take your kids there, you can reserve books to pick up. Before you turn off your computer to start your screen fast, be sure to check out RP’s recommendations for picture books, graphic novels, biographies, and novels for all ages. We have hundreds of nominees for you at Reformedperspective.ca/books. Remember to take a book with you wherever you go to fill in those spare moments when you used to play a phone game. New Testament Bible reading challenge anyone? If you read for a half hour each day, starting at Matthew, you could make it through most of the gospels in 10 days. Listen to a dramatized audiobook like the Chronicles of Narnia. Interview someone Interview your grandparents or parents or an inspirational someone you’d like to learn from… but first, alone, or together with friends or family, come up with a list of 20 questions to ask them. How did they meet their spouse? Was there an important lesson they learned the hard way? How have they seen God acting in their life? If they could go back in time, what would they tell their 15-year-old self? Etc. Interview your cat, dog, or even your favorite book, and imagine the answers they’d give. Be sure to write it all down, so you can share it with your family! Start (or share) a hobby Always wanted to learn to crochet, draw, or play the guitar? Get yourself prepped to give it a real go by either finding someone who will teach you, or finding a book or maybe even a video series (maybe that’s one of your exceptions?). Teach your kids, or a friend’s kids, how to sew, whittle, sketch, paint, or hit a baseball. Get some exercise Go for a long walk each day or head out on a hike with your spouse, family, a friend or two, or take the time alone to talk with God. Try something new. Pickleball anyone? Rock climbing? How about swimming? Or what about a program to help with your achy knees? Volunteer Babysit for a couple so they can have a nice evening out. Ask your oma if she needs any help around her house or yard. Deliver some Let Kids Be brochures door-to-door for ARPA Canada. Staycation Become a tourist in your own backyard and check out your local attractions – museums, zoo, historical sites, hiking and biking trails, playgrounds, thrift stores, and more. Build a fire in your backyard, roast marshmallows, make s’mores, stargaze, and swap tall tales. Reboot your gratitude Start a gratitude journal and journal daily – God has given us so much that we can easily overlook the blessings all around. Give Him glory by taking the time to see it all. Make it a family challenge to come up with 5 (or more, or less – see how hard or easy it is) events, people, or things that made you happy today. Write each one down on a notecard, accompanied by some related artwork, and post them to a hallway wall. For motivation’s sake, come up with a small reward (a Hershey kiss?) for each notecard, and a small penalty (one push-up per) for whatever each participants falls short of. Click away Create a photo scavenger hunt for your friends – a list of 10 items for teams to search out and find in the great outdoors and take a picture of to prove they found them. Items can be anything, but they should be possible, but hard, to find like a four-leaf clover, or something in nature shaped like a Z, etc. Take pictures for RP's summer photo contest. Find the rules and deadline by clicking here. An evening inside Read the same book together, out loud with one copy (taking turns, and maybe while doing a puzzle) or quietly with multiple copies. Be interruptible so you and your kids can share your favorite parts. Create your own game together. It can be whatever you like, but two easy and fun possibilities involve variants on Pictionary and charades. The first step is to create a “deck” of 100 things you’ll either draw or act out with every player contributing ideas. You can now divide into teams, or just take turns being the drawer or actor, with everyone else guessing. Mix it up by giving the option of acting or drawing the card. Play a round and get everyone to offer up a new twist on the rules and then vote on your favorite and play again. Write Write about your experiences doing the screen-fast and think about sharing it with RP! Write a letter to your younger self and share the 10 pieces of advice you’d want him to know. Falling asleep Fall asleep to a devotional. If you find it hard to get to sleep at night without a screen, try reading a devotional. Prayer, and then a few minutes reading, can help you hand off your concerns to God. If you’re married, take turns doing the reading. Couples can use the undistracted time at the end of the day to be fully present with their spouse – emotionally, spiritually, and physically. Turn off the screens and turn toward each other. Challenges Everyone loves a competition so create a challenge a day and recruit your family and friends. Examples could include doing 100 of anything (push-ups, squats, etc.) over a day. Or going 24 hours without saying anything negative (do a pushup/squat when you blow it). Track how many times you reach for or pine for your screen using a communal tick – maybe a sheet of paper on the fridge. See how you compare to your friends, and how your first day compares to day 10. Challenge your kids to find 10, 20, or even 100 things in their room (or the house) to throw out or give away. Plan out the next challenge that Reformed Perspective should do.   Pictures by Hannah Penninga....

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Parenting

Real Talk: Recovering family worship

This episode can also be found on your favorite podcast platform: Spotify, Apple, Podbean, Amazon Music or on our website. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel and our podcast profiles so you can be notified when new episodes are released. Please note that the transcript below was automatically generated and quickly edited so it may contain some errors. ***** Opening What if your home was more than just a place of routine? What if it became a place of worship? Family worship is not complicated, but it does require intention. We often say we don't have time, but the reality is we make time for what matters, and when we consider all that Christ has done for us, worship in the home is not an obligation, but rather a grateful response. Today, I'm joined by Pastor and author Dr. Brian Najapfour, and we're talking about what it means to intentionally lead our families in worship. A big thanks to our official sponsor, Trivan, for making this conversation possible. Be sure to check them [email protected]. Now on to the show. The world's changing fast, but what questions should we really be asking? You're listening to Real Talk, a podcast presented by Reformed Perspective, where we take God's word and apply it to the nitty gritty of life. Buckle up for real questions, real answers, and real direction. This is Real Talk. Lucas Holtvluwer We're glad to have you here. Dr. Brian Najapfour Thank you. Lucas Holtvluwer And we're gonna be talking all about family worship, of course, but I thought you have a very interesting story coming from your father from Iran, and you growing up in the Philippines and coming to know Christ. Can you tell us a little bit just about your story in a brief few minutes before we're going to jump into the family worship. How did you become a Christian, and what was it like growing up in the Philippines? Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, so I grew up Roman Catholic, which is the predominant religion in the Philippines. Yeah, I think even today, about 80% of the population is Roman Catholic, but I imagine nominal. A lot of them, they don't really go to church, and that was the case with me when I was in the Philippines, when I was Roman Catholic. I would go to church probably five times a year, Christmas, Holy week, my birthday. And I remember back in 19, I think 1995 a Baptist pastor came to share the gospel with me and even today I have that relationship with that pastor, his name is Pastor Willie Cruz, and in fact, whenever I go to the Philippines, I would preach for his congregation, so he has been the pastor of that church for over 30 years, because the Lord saved me in 1996 by God's grace, and another pastor by the name of Pastor Bong Lug Tu, he discipled me. He was really the one who would spend time with me. I remember he would come and visit me at home, and we would jog, and he would pray for me, help me understand more the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and so when I, maybe this is a promotion, quick promotion of evangelism. Yeah, I wrote a book, which I entitled Every Christian Is an Evangelist: Biblical Motivations for Sharing the Gospel. I dedicated that book to those two ministers of the gospel, Pastor Willie Cruz, and then Pastor Bong Lugto. And so that was 1996 when the Lord converted me, and I remember having this realization that I basically wasted 16 years of my life, and I said, Lord, if it would please you, I want to serve you for the rest of my life. So, believe it or not, the next year, the following year, 1997 so I was a brand new Christian. I wanted to serve the Lord, and so I, I decided to attend a seminary, and I still remember when they interviewed me. One of the questions was, How are you going to finance your, your studies here, and I said, well, I don't have money in my pocket, but I have faith in the Lord here in my pocket, and sure enough, the Lord provided, and so 2001 I was only 20 years old, turning 21 I graduated in a local church called me, extended a call, which I accepted, and so I started pastoring in 2001 before I turned 21 years old. So I've been serving now the Lord for 25 years, so this year marks my 25th in the ministry. Only by God's grace. Lucas Holtvluwer Wow, congratulations! Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, thank you. And, like, what I mentioned, I was the first one to become a Christian in the family, and by God's grace, my mom came to know the Lord Jesus Christ after my conversion, and I have a half brother from my mom, and he too eventually became a Christian. Now, my father, who originally came from Iran, but he left Iran in the 1970s he's been in Australia now for 4040 plus years. I don't think he's a believer, and it's really my, my prayer that someday he too will enjoy the blessing of salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. And I know nothing is impossible with the Lord, we will talk about family worship, and I want to encourage to those parents who might have the so-called prodigal sons and daughters, prodigal children, maybe they once grew up in the church, but they've left for some reason, and at the end of the day, we know that it is the Holy Spirit who will regenerate our dead souls. Salvation belongs to the Lord, and that happened to me when I grew up. There was no family worship, after all. I grew up in a broken family, and it's not easy. My mom had to work hard to raise us, to provide for us, and I also lived in an environment where drugs were there, I actually to survive before my conversion, before the Lord saved me. I even entered Jueteng. Jueteng is a form of illegal gambling in the Philippines, but when the Lord saved me, I gave up that gambling. Of course, we know that it's, it's not something that Christians should, should do. It's, it's against God's, God's will as revealed in His word. But here I am right now, sitting right next to you as a token of God's grace, and so if I may encourage to our viewers that at the end of the day it is the Lord who will save their children. Now, it doesn't mean that they should not pray, they should, and we will talk more about talk about the use of family worship. Lucas Holtvluwer Yep, wonderful. Well, thanks for sharing that. I appreciate that. It's a wonderful story. So, I guess we fast forward 26 years or 25 years there. So, we're sitting here today, we want to have you on because you had this Go and Teach conference, and you gave a speech there on family worship and the importance of it. So, we were chatting just before the show, we had Dr. Beeke on, and we kind of touched on this a little bit in that episode. So if the listeners are listening to this, you know, today in the future, they'll, they may have checked that out. So we touched on that a little bit in that episode, but in this one we want to go a little bit deeper and really like dive into, like, okay, what is this concept of family worship, and why does it matter? Why is it called like, why do you, why is God call us to do this, and how is that different from just reading the Bible, or just, just praying after a meal? And while those are important, there's, there's more to it there. So, maybe we'll just start from kind of where you started your talk at the beginning about this idea, the concept of family inside the church. Do you feel that we have a bit of a misunderstanding of, like, the importance of the family in the church, or how that kind of functions in relation to corporate worship and then family worship? Can you want to touch on that a little bit? Dr. Brian Najapfour When you say misunderstanding, what exactly do you have in mind? Lucas Holtvluwer Well, like, do we, I guess, do we think of worship as something that's more done, like, outside of the family circle, and don't think about it as, like, the family is almost like a mini church in some ways, and the not only the impact and the means of grace that can exist through family worship, and I'm sure we'll touch on that as well, but just the opportunity that is there to praise and glorify God in our, in our family life as well. Like, it's I think it's easy, especially in our Western culture, and perhaps you can speak to that, coming from the Philippines, as well as kind of an outsider to that, and then coming into it, of how, like, we can really like bifurcate and separate. Separate our different portions of our life, right, and compartmentalize, and I think sometimes the worship in the family home, in the family aspect, doesn't always get brought in there in the same way we think about it in church, so maybe just kind of speak to that about, like, okay, worship is not just for in church, you can also do it in a family context, why does that matter, and what's important about that? Dr. Brian Najapfour Thank you for clarifying that. I think it's helpful too to realize that worship has basically three aspects. So, first of all, there is what we call personal, or closet, or private worship, that's our personal worship with the Lord. You alone with the Lord. The Puritans would use the term closet, that's like being inside the closet when no one sees you, but, but, but the Lord. So that's very important, because the second aspect of worship is what we call family worship, and I think this is where we have the misunderstanding, especially with regard to worship. Sometimes we think that worship can only be done outside our family, thus we have the third aspect of worship, which is public worship, corporate worship, which we are very familiar with, because that's what we do. If you are a believer, you go to church twice on Sunday. In our tradition, we have two services. I understand that there are many evangelical churches today that only worship once on Sunday, and that's what we know when we think of worship, that's good, and the Lord has commanded that, commanded us, do not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, but let us not forget too that there is what we call family worship or family altar, and I remember what John Chrysostom said, that we should treat our family as a little church, and that idea was carried on by the Protestant reformers, like Martin Luther, especially the Puritans, even Matthew Henry would also strongly say that our family is actually a little congregation. And why is it so? Well, because our family, our home, is not just a place where we eat, where we sleep, where we have that enjoyment that we can enjoy from the Lord all the blessings, but this is also a place of worship where there is a tent. One Puritan said there is also an altar where you can offer sacrifices to the Lord, and I think that's where the misunderstanding comes, because a lot of us don't think of our home as a place of worship, but it is, it is, and that's why family worship is so crucial, because think about this, Lucas. Well, first I mentioned about the private worship, your personal worship with the Lord. If your personal relationship with God is weak, let's say as a father, that will reflect your family worship will be affected by that, because really, family worship should be an outcome, natural overflow of what you are inside the closet, and then at the same time, if your family worship is weak, that will eventually affect the congregation. Yeah. public worship, and I'm afraid that one of the problems, Lucas, that we have nowadays, you know, we often complain, how come that the attendance is declining for public worship? A lot of families are no longer worshiping the Lord, children, they are not worshiping young people. They would rather go to a baseball game or watch a hockey game on Sunday than be in the house of the Lord. Why is it so? Well, really, it's a reflection of what happened inside the house. Now, I'm not saying that that's always always the case, but if our family worship is shallow, weak, what do we expect? We will also have a shallow, weak corporate public worship. Lucas Holtvluwer And you see that as a real, like, pressing need, especially in today's society, like where things are at, because I would, I would say, like, even just in my experience growing up in Dutch Reform circles, yeah, like, there were consistent patterns of, you know, reading and praying at meal times, and some families would sing, like, if you go over to someone's house on a Sunday, like, certain families would, certain wouldn't, whatever, but this, like, when we had Dr. Beeke on, we were talking about this whole idea of, like, you go to a separate room, and like, you get the books out, and you do, yeah, you sing, and you read the Bible, and you discuss it, and you know it's like a whole separate event, almost, right? Is that kind of what? How do you practice that in your home? What does that look like exactly? Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, so my wife and I, we have five children, ages between four and 13, and what we do again, each family is unique, and sometimes, depending on the age, two of your children, so because we have five kids in the range is quite big, four to 13, so we have this practice where we make a rotation, we take turns as to who will open in prayer, so before we eat, let's say my oldest daughter will open in in prayer, and then we eat, and then we go to our family room, the living room, and we have seven bibles, because five kids, plus myself, and then my wife, we have, we have seven bibles, and each one will have a bible, now of course, our four year old daughter cannot read yet, but it's good for her to see, to observe, so we don't expect her to read yet, but those who can, they should read, so we will take turns right now, we have been reading from the book of Exodus, so let's say Exodus chapter 32 and each will read two verses. So I usually start, so I will start two verses, and then I guess this is my advantage too as a pastor. If there is something that I would like to stress underscore, I will pause, and then explain that to them. So, for instance, when we read about the Tabernacle, yeah, a lot of symbols there. Yes, so then you can, you can help them. Okay? Why do we have this? Because the goal also is that you look for Christ. Otherwise, when you just read and then give moral lessons, it will be moralistic and I think that's one of my concerns, by the way, too. In many family worship today, it becomes moralistic, and by that I mean they simply read it. Let's say if they read about the narrative or story about David and Goliath, so or Daniel and his three friends. Well, we want to be like Daniel, brave, courageous, and then you stop there, or like David, strong. Well, yeah, not really, but strong in the Lord, yeah, courageous, and we say to our children, you see, we need to be courageous like David, no, no, go beyond that story, look for Christ, and you can say that here, my child or my children, David really represents the Lord Jesus Christ, the greater David, who fought the greater Goliath, Satan. So you bring out of the text the Christology and pointing them to the cross and sharing the gospel, which the goal is really to share the gospel with our children, and another misconception, too. Sometimes we think, well, my, my child is already a believer. Praise the Lord for that. If your child is showing the marks of grace, but it doesn't mean that your child, your believing child, does not need the gospel anymore, because Lucas, I cannot imagine my life without the gospel. I need the gospel every day, when I, when I sin, I need the gospel. I need forgiveness, I need Christ, I need His blood. When, when I am down, I need the encouragement rooted in the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. So that's one thing that we need to do also as we lead our family in family devotion, and so we read, and then the next person will read two verses also, until we sometimes it doesn't need to be long, so you play by ear also, sometimes the text or. The chapter will end naturally. There will be a division, and then you can pause there. You can say, "Okay, I think we can, we can stop here and then continue next time.” Let's say, if you're reading about the plagues, you may want to just read one plague or two plagues. Stop there and then after that you ask them what do you think, what can you learn from, from, from this passage, or better yet, where is Christ here? Where's the gospel here? How can we use this, and then you help them to apply it practically. Oh, you know, between, between siblings, there is a fight, mini fight. You probably know that. You have.. how many siblings? Five siblings. Then, then, as parents, now.. and my wife is so good at this. Yeah. Then, then she will help me. Then, okay. Then, how.. how can we apply this? How can we use this if we are angry? Yeah, how can we use this if let's say someone did this to you or that things like that. Again, let it come naturally from the text. Yeah, there are practical applications, but my point earlier, if all that we get are practical applications devoid of the gospel, then you will end up with moralism, and there's no power there. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, you need some heart behind it as well. You need the gospel. Dr. Brian Najapfour And then after that, we sing. Lucas Holtvluwer Yes. Okay. Dr. Brian Najapfour So the one who opens in prayer will have the opportunity to pick a song, so we're using the Trinity Salter hymnal, that the OPC and URC have produced. Excellent. What I like about that hymn book, you have psalms and then hymns together so in a good selection, really good selection of hymns, so we will sing one, and then I always speak the second. We sing two, and sometimes too, we just sing from memory. Let's say, for the sake of our four year old daughter, we can, we can sing in the name of Jesus. In the name of Jesus, we have the victory, you know, something like that, or read your Bible, pray every day, sometimes with, with actions, yeah, and you grow, grow, grow, yeah, so that the little ones can, can relate to it, bring them into it, but at the same time you can sing hymns where the old ones can appreciate better than read your Bible. Sometimes, for some reason, you know that, yeah, as you're entering the teenage year, you somehow feel embarrassed to read your Bible. And then we close in prayer. Yeah, we gathered the prayer request. Okay, do you have prayer requests now? Because they go to school, they, they will share something from the classroom. Please pray for my classmate, his dad is going to have surgery, or please, like one of our teachers, or not teachers, a librarian, she has cancer, Mrs. Chaytor. Okay, so the kids will say, Mrs. Chaytor, pray for Mrs. Chaytor always, every time, every time. To the point that if it is my turn and I'm coming near the end of my prayer, especially the youngest “Mrs. Chaytor”, it's like, don't forget that. Yeah, I hear you. Yes, I will get to Mrs. Chaytor. Yeah, yeah. So, probably 15 minutes by the time you, you're done. Lucas Holtvluwer So there's a kind of like four major parts. There's the Bible reading, there's like the explanation, looking for the gospel, Christology, yeah, and then there's the singing, and then prayer, Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah. Lucas Holtvluwer Okay, and so when you were putting together this whole go and teach conference, and then you wanted to speak on this issue, what kind of caused you to say, oh, like this is a really relevant topic that we need to talk about, like today, especially like, is it the whole, like, whatever, entertaining ourselves to death kind of thing, like what is distracting us, or how did this habit kind of get lost over the years? Because I know, like, HRC Church, like you guys draw from the Puritans, and kind of that whole tradition a lot too, and there's lots of great things to learn from them as well, including this idea of family worship and trying to revive that and bring that back, but like historically, is that something you looked into at all? Like, oh, like, how did this practice kind of fade out, and why is it so important? I guess to bring it back in. Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, it's actually interesting. I think when you look at church history, even among the earlier church fathers, I mentioned the name John. Chrysostom, he was big when it comes to family altar, family worship. Yeah, he would say that our home is a little church, little congregation, and the Protestant reformers, John Calvin, Martin Luther would carry that idea, and especially the Puritans. And then, for some reason, when we reached the 18th century, the rise of evangelicalism, I think the focus shifted from family to personal, and that's why… Lucas Holtvluwer It’s a whole like, expressive individualism. Dr. Brian Najapfour It’s interesting too, because even the hymnology hymns, you will see that, for instance, Charles Wesley, notice his hymns, very personal, Fanny Crosby, that thou, my God, should die for me. My, the me sort… Lucas Holtvluwer of the we in the us and all that. Dr. Brian Najapfour No, there's nothing wrong about that. I'm not saying because they were also reacting to the cold dry spirituality of the Church of England, then in the 18th century, and we thank God for men like George Whitefield, Charles Wesley, Joseph Hart. I did my dissertation on Joseph Hart; he was one of contemporaries of George Whitfield, Charles Wesley, and he himself, Joseph Hart, wrote several hymns, 222 in total. You will probably recognize one of them, Come Ye Sinners, Poor and Needy. Lucas Holtvluwer Oh yeah. He wrote that one. Dr. Brian Najapfour He wrote that one. So he's lesser known compared to other great hymn writers of the 18th century, but same, the focus was personal, and again, please don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong about that, but I think, too, as we moved forward to the 19th century, it became too personal, not familial, not the, not more family, so probably that contributed. I could be wrong, but that's one of my observations in church history. And, of course, fast forward now, 20-first century, with the rise of media, cell phone. You know what's sad, Lucas. I remember my wife and I with our children, we went to this restaurant, and I remember sitting right next to this family, where so the two kids and the parents, they were all holding their cell phones, and they were like this, there was no conversation around the table, so gently I said to my… I remember telling one of my children, I said, do you know this? Look, look at them. Yeah, because our kids, they're excited to have their cell phones. Like, when can I have my cell phone? Not right now. You're only 13 years old, or you're only 11 years old. You need to wait, but look at that. Maybe those children were only maybe 10, 11, 12. They had their own cell phones. There was no conversation. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, it's not good. Dr. Brian Najapfour And, and you know, Lucas, to another problem. Actually, my wife, who is a teacher, told me about this when she was in British Columbia, so she went to Fraser Valley University, and there was a course where they, the teachers had to be aware of this, that they, need to teach their students how to interact somehow. Kids, they don't know how to interact, they don't know how to converse, they don't know how to talk. Yeah, and why is it so well? First of all, each room has a television, so here you have a household, a family. If they have two children, three children, they have each will have his or her own bedroom, and there's a television. They, they rarely eat together. Lucas, one child will eat in his own room, the other one in her own room. There is no fellowship around the table. And so, this is, by the way, so common in the world. Like, family worship is so rare. So rare. And I'm afraid that even within a Christian community, and yes, Reformed community, it's becoming so rare too, and that's why we want to, and I'm so glad that you're taking the time to interview me about family worship, because it's a crucial, a very crucial topic, because think about this, if our family is broken, what kind of society shall we expect to have? And when? Because a society is composed of families. When you, when you have weak, broken families, you will have a broken society. And when you have a broken society, you will have a broken nation. And unfortunately our politicians don't see that problem, that we need to strengthen our families, Lucas Holtvluwer Or they come from a lot of broken families, probably. Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, no, I did, like that's why I started with emphasizing God's grace, too, because at the end of the day, it's the grace of the Lord that will change us, transform us, but let us not also forget that God is using this means for conversion to save our children and to transform our children to strengthen our family worship. Lucas Holtvluwer Well, you mentioned Joshua 24, “As for me, my house will serve the Lord”, as kind of like a key text in this regard, for sure. And I mean, I think this was a bit later on the outline, but I think it's relevant to what we're talking about right now, in terms of as reform folks, we don't usually get into the language of like we choose to do this or we choose to that, right? We're kind of like allergic, but like in that way, like, why is it so important to say, like, no. As for me, at my house, we will serve the Lord and make that distinct choice, yeah? Like, for you and your wife, maybe you could speak to your experience or what you've seen as a pastor in general, but I don't know if we've, if we, and I say we, as like the collective reform, not like I'm speaking for them, necessarily, but just from in my own mind, maybe like thinking about that as like put your line in the sand, this is what we're going to do, that's kind of a new way of thinking, it's more just like, oh, I've grown up in this, this is yes, this is how our family kind of operates, and these are the things we do, but being very explicit about it and creating some of these good habits around family worship, that's yeah, that's a key choice you make. So, when you were kind of putting together this talk and speaking about this and writing on this, how important was it to say, "Hey, like, put a line in the sand and say, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord? Dr. Brian Najapfour It's a resolution, Lucas, that we need to make you don't make that on my behalf, that choice, that decision, you don't decide for me as a father of my home, my household, I make that decision, and even if I'm the only father in the world that will do this, I will, by the grace of God, make that decision, that no matter what happens, like in the context of Joshua, and by the way, really, when, when we take that verse within, within its context, you will appreciate better, because prior to that, Joshua has just reminded God's covenant people of what, what the Lord has done for them. Lucas Holtvluwer The whole history, yeah. Dr. Brian Najapfour The Lord has redeemed them from the land of Egypt, from bondage, slavery. The Lord has given them victory over their enemies, the Canaanites, Jebusites. The Lord has given them this promised land, a land flowing with milk and honey, and now Joshua is saying, now therefore choose you this day whom you will serve. In light of this, how can we not serve the Lord, like when we think of what God has done for us, when we think of what He has given to us. Now, of course, in the gospel, in the gospel, He has given us far better, far more better blessings than what the God's covenant people experience that time because in the gospel the deliverance that we have is not just from the slavery bondage of Egypt or Pharaoh, but deliverance from the bondage of sin and bondage of Satan. We have that freedom, not freedom to sin, but freedom to worship. We have been set free. The Lord has given us that, that liberty to worship Him. The Lord has given us this promised land, now the Beulah land, the celestial city that awaits us someday, that we. Will be dwelling in the house of the Lord forever, and not to mention all the spiritual blessings that we have in Jesus, the blessing of justification, that in Christ we have been justified by faith in Him. We have the blessing of salvation, that we have life everlasting blessing of sanctification, that we are being conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ. Day by day, we have the blessing of spiritual adoption, that in Christ we have become the children of God. We belong to God's family, and, and not to mention all the physical and material blessings that the Lord is is giving to us. That's why, in our family, we do our family worship right after our supper. And so you have that natural way of reminding your children, children, the Lord has just blessed us with food. Are you aware that there are other children who are literally starving when we think of the children, for instance, in Gaza, I've seen a lot of videos, yeah, like they are starving, they need food, and, and we can say, my child, the Lord has just fed us, shall we not thank him, shall we not worship him as a family? Look at you. You have nice clothing. You live in a beautiful home. If it is cold outside, we have furnace. If it is hot outside, we have AC. You go to school, there is a school bus. You don't need to walk, whereas some kids will have to walk for five kilometers just to get to school with an empty stomach, they have no food. You can go to school with snacks, you are so blessed. And when we like what one hymn writer says, count your blessings, name them one by one, and it will surprise you to what the Lord has done. You know, we are quick to count what we don't have. Weare quick to count the afflictions and trials and problems, but the moment we pause Lucas, and think of all the blessings the Lord has given to us, then why shall we not choose to serve the Lord, to worship Him. This the least thing that we can do in return for what the Lord has given to us, to have our family worship, where all together we bow down before the Lord, kneel down and say, as a family… Lucas Holtvluwer Do it together. Dr. Brian Najapfour … “Lord, thank you so much. You have been so, so good to us.” I understand there will be a problem, affliction, cancer, loss, death in the family, and when you have that trial, it might not be easy to thank the Lord, but still, when we now focus on Christ and think of His suffering, His agony. Here you have Jesus, who cried out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? He suffered, He did not sin. Now I deserved to suffer Lucas because of my sin, but Jesus never sinned, and yet He took my sin. He died, and yes, there will be loss - a loss, God forbid you might lose your child. Now, my wife and I, we had two miscarriages. It was not easy. I remember crying like, like a baby, but God, the Father, lost His son too. His son died on the cross, and He can very well relate to us at that moment, and say, Lord, please help me, sustain me as a family, help us as a family, help us to say with Job, the Lord gave, the Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord, that's family worship. Lucas Holtvluwer It’s there during the highs and during the lows. How did you? Well, I guess maybe how did you, or how do you continue to keep that spirit of thankfulness in your family worship and not let it shift into one of obligation and duty, and having it just become rote Dr. Brian Najapfour Again, once we do our family worship as an expression of our gratitude to the Lord, I think that will change the way we do it. So, in other words, if one of my children were to ask me, "Dad, why do we have to do this? Why do we need to have family devotion, few families on earth do this anyway.” Now, if I, if I say, well, it's a good tradition, it's our tradition, by the way. Well, that's good, but it's not really convincing. Lucas Holtvluwer No. Dr. Brian Najapfour If I say, well, you see, if we don't do this, our elders will come in and maybe castigate me, especially I'm a pastor, I need to do this, set a good example. No, we can, we can give them a better reason, and the reason really is we're doing this because of what Jesus has done for us at the cross of Calvary, this is our way of saying thank you as a family. So, family worship is really a thank you to Jesus for all that He has accomplished for us on the cross of Calvary. Now, our children may not understand it that way, and that's why it's so important that we again help them focus on Christ, because if, if the reason for having family worship is merely material, material, or financial, or physical, well, let's worship the Lord, because the Lord has blessed us, the Lord has given us this food on the table. What if Lucas one day we come to the table and there's no food on it? We're blessed here in Canada, in North America, but think of other Christian families, let's say in, in many countries in Africa, where there is really starvation. How can you, how can you worship the Lord when, when you're so hungry? How can you worship the Lord when you don't even know if you have food tomorrow. How can you worship the Lord if there is severe, intense persecution that you know that that any, any time one of the officials of the government will come and arrest you because of the gospel? It's, it's not easy, but again, if we do family worship because of Jesus, then we have always the reason to do it, and that's really the reason, it's Christ, and so I would, I would encourage parents, families that when we do it, give, give that reason to our children. We do it to say thank you to Jesus for what He has done for us. Because think about this, as the psalmist says, the Lord is good. The Lord is good, and He's always good. And if we really believe that, then we always have a reason to thank him and praise him and worship him. Lucas Holtvluwer Amen to that. You talked earlier about the different areas that kind of correspond with each other, of personal devotion, and then you have family worship, of course, then the corporate worship within church and congregation, as a father, as a husband, as a leader in your home, how do you keep your personal devotional life strong, so that you have that overflow that can feed into, I mean, in your case also as a pastor, but obviously into the family worship, then into your church family as well. Dr. Brian Najapfour Very good question. The key is to be consistent. Now, do I do it all the time? Of course not. There are times that, let's say, as a pastor, let's say you have a meeting, consistory meeting, elders meeting, and you have to go to bed late, sometimes 12 midnight, or something, something happens unexpectedly, or one of my children broke her two wrists. Emergency. Lucas Holtvluwer Oh, wow. Dr. Brian Najapfour So, I do my personal devotion in the morning, and yeah, it's hard to wake up early in the morning, so I had to skip because of what happened, so I might do it later that day, but you want, you want to be consistent, but let's set a time, so like in my case, if you don't set a time, it will never happen. Likewith this interview. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, we got a book it. Dr. Brian Najapfour Exactly, exactly. And once you do it, it becomes a habit. Lucas Holtvluwer Yep. Dr. Brian Najapfour You to the point that if you don't do it, you know you're missing something. Yeah, it's like I go to the gym regularly and if I don't go to the gym, my body misses it somehow. There, there is, something is missing. I know that I need to go to the gym. It's the same with my personal devotion. I know that I need, I need to do it to spend time with the Lord. Now, there, there are dangers too, for us ministers of the gospel to substitute right sermon preparation, that that you now do this to replace your personal devotion. Lucas Holtvluwer That's just part of your job. Dr. Brian Najapfour Yes, and I will discourage pastors for doing that. I think it's sacred that we need to protect our personal devotion again. It doesn't need to be long. Now, in my personal devotion, I pray for my children, obviously, and for my congregation also. I can, I can pray for this family, two families, or sometimes you have special requests that you remember. Again, I want to be realistic also, because easily you can spend time just praying. 30 minutes is too short if you want to pray for your members, and not to mention your friends and family members, so you need to say, okay, I need to focus on this time for just one family. I spend like five minutes, 10 minutes, and usually to for my prayer I use my passage, so if I read from Genesis, let's say Genesis chapter seven, chapter eight, let's say about Noah, then you use that in your, in your prayer, you thank God for the ark, for the Lord Jesus Christ, you use that as a basis, otherwise you develop a cliche. And I think that's another thing also that we need to watch as fathers, that we develop cliche cliches, and, and our children will notice that. Yeah, so it's good if your prayer is based on the passage that you, that you read for that devotion. So, yeah, I watch it, I watch my personal devotion, I fail, but I, I want to go back again. Lucas Holtvluwer If it's a habit, give up, you know, you're missing it, that's that's a good key point to take home for all. Dr. Brian Najapfour Doesn’t need to be long. Lucas Holtvluwer But consistent. Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, you know, Al Martin, he died recently, and he said in his, in his office, he had two chairs, one chair for his study and one for prayer, for his personal devotion. Well, I only had one chair, but I thought that that was a good way to make that distinction, that you have another chair that you use, Lucas Holtvluwer Your prayer chair. Dr. Brian Najapfour your prayer chair, your worship chair, right. Now, having said that, it should also be that whatever we do that day, whether you are a plumber, a doctor, or a nurse, or a builder, that you do what you do as an act of worship, and so in that case you worship the Lord every day, every single hour. For a mom, when, when you wake up in the middle of the night to change your baby's diaper, when you do it for God's glory, that's an act of worship. So, right there, changing a diaper, you're worshiping the Lord. Lucas Holtvluwer Yep Dr. Brian Najapfour So yeah, we, we want to do everything for God's glory. Start to finish of the day. Lucas Holtvluwer Agreed. What are some of these idols in our culture, specifically in family life, that we can kind of let get in the way of a habit of family worship, because, like, some of the objections you might hear to this would be I don't have the time for it, or I wouldn't know what to say, or isn't, you know, reading the Bible and praying enough. Why do we have to go take these extra steps? Now, you talked about that last one a bit with the idea of gratitude and seeing what Christ has done for us, but what are some idols in our culture today that you see that are inhibiting us from taking the necessary steps to have a healthy regular practice of family worship? Dr. Brian Najapfour Good question. So, generally speaking, an idol is anything that takes priority over over the Lord, it could be your sport, whatever it might be, hockey, hockey game, or basketball. I love basketball, but if basketball becomes my priority, more important. And then the Lord, then that becomes an idol, and I think the challenge too is that again, let's, let's be realistic now, so I'll give you a realistic scenario of our family, so my daughter, she needs to practice piano, and that's in the evening, so that's Monday night, every other Monday night, so that that night she won't be able to join our family devotion, and then my wife too, but I have to do it, so like my myself, and then the other four kids, now is that our preferred time for the practice? No, but that's the only time that she could, she could practice the piano lesson. Yeah, the piano lesson. So, sometimes, sometimes we will, we will wait for her. Sometimes also, let's say I have a meeting, let's say consistent meeting, and then let's say we happen to eat late that night, then the family worship will be shortened.. Lucas Holtvluwer Expedited, yeah. Dr. Brian Najapfour But then I will say, love, that's how I called my wife, yeah, love. I need to go, please just close in prayer without me. But that's not ideal. Lucas Holtvluwer No, Dr. Brian Najapfour Sometimes too, my son, James, will practice baseball. Let’s say Saturday. They're practicing, although I think after for four for four weeks every Saturday night, then after that I forgot exactly which day of the week, because I don't like Saturday, because I protect my Saturday night for my sermon preparation, like final preparation for the Sunday, but anyway, so sometimes he has to go after supper, so then he will miss, but it's not ideal. So, that can be a challenge, by the way, Lucas. So, we need to be careful, because if you do it regularly every day, then something is wrong, but if you do it, let's say occasionally, and with the understanding that, okay, when you come back, we will still do it. You will join us. That's another story. But I think what we're seeing in many families is that, well, they will say they have no time for family worship, but in the meantime, the father has time to go out hunting for four days, he will be gone for four days, or five days. Yeah, he will even go to another province to look for elk or moose. And I have a problem with that, because if you, if you have time to hunt for five days, and you say to me you have no time for family devotion or fishing, they will be gone for two days, three days fishing, but no time for family devotion, that's some something's wrong right there. Lucas Holtvluwer It’s a misalignment. Dr. Brian Najapfour Yes, what is your priority? You're right, or some people would say, well, I, we don't have resources, you know, I can't afford to buy that family worship Bible guide. Well, really, and you have money to buy cigarette or tools for fishing, which are more expensive than maybe tools for family devotion. Yeah, you need the Bible, and if you can afford to buy that guide, family worship Bible guide. So, I think the issue is priority. Is it really a priority? And it goes back to what Joshua said. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Choose you this day. We need to make a decision, because if we don't, then the world will make a decision on behalf of our family, and we may not be aware that the world is catechizing our children. Do you actually think that when, let's say, we watch a baseball game or hockey game, and during the break time, or before or after the game, they will, they will play a song. Do you actually think that our kids are not listening to those songs, the conversation that they over, that they overhear from other people attending? Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah. Dr. Brian Najapfour And the world is not neutral. The world has an agenda. The world will teach catechize our children, and we need to counter that. And sometimes we parents, we say, "Oh, what, what happened to my children? What, what have you done?” Sometimes you know, we ask that question to our children. Well, maybe we should ask the question, "What have I done?” As a parent, as a father, because maybe we have let them, we have surrendered our children to the world, and now the world is teaching them with things that are not according to the word of God, even having friends, right? So, if we don't train our children, they have no weapons. Yeah, someone actually said one Puritan, and when you don't have family devotion, family worship, it's like having a house with no roof. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah. Dr. Brian Najapfour You're open to dangers. Lucas Holtvluwer Yep, yep, you're not protected. Dr. Brian Najapfour You're not protected, yeah. Lucas Holtvluwer But so, given your family circumstance, and you came from a family that was a broken family, and no Christians in that family, and you were able to come to Christ and become a pastor and lead the life you leave lead, rather, if someone were to critique that and say, well, you didn't have family worship growing up and see what the Holy Spirit was able to do in your life, isn't it all the Holy Spirit at the end of the day? How important is it to still take the time and effort to do family worship in light of the power of the Holy Spirit? Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, so we believe that it is the Holy Spirit that will regenerate our children, will circumcise their hearts, will save them. Salvation belongs to the Lord. And yet the Holy Spirit, in His word, has given us the responsibility. Also, it is our holy obligation to raise our children in the ways of the Lord, in the fear of the Lord, and one of those ways that we can raise them in the fear of the Lord is through family devotion, and we should not neglect it, but use it, actually take, take advantage of this gift from the Lord, this blessing, it's a blessing, and if let's say one of our listeners, let's say has not yet done this. It's not too late. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah. Dr. Brian Najapfour You can start now, and that's why going back to the Joshua passage, choose you this day. It speaks of urgency. Joshua did not say choose, choose you tomorrow or next week. No, right now today it's so urgent. Why? Because time is of the essence. Our children, they grow fast. Lucas Holtvluwer Oh yeah. Dr. Brian Najapfour Before you know it, they are out of our home, they are married, they live on their own. So, while we still have this opportunity, golden opportunity, let's take advantage of this, let's seize every opportunity that we have as parents to train them, to help them, to equip them, because we, they will not be forever living with us, they will be going to colleges, and guess what, some of their teachers, professors may not be Christians. How, if we don't equip them, then how can they respond to challenges? So it is our responsibility to equip them, and we can use family worship. I dare say that family worship is really one of the most important things that a father can do for his family. Family worship. Lucas Holtvluwer I would agree. Yeah, it's that daily, you're just again bathing them in the gospel, right? And those, those regular routines of coming together as a family, I mean, you hear it even just in a more general social context of people lamenting the loss of eating dinner together, right, and just in the society kind of breaking down around us, and like you mentioned earlier, families eating in separate rooms and broken families, and that sort of thing, so it's good to good to know that largely we have still retained that, I think, unless you're seeing that as a trend, I feel like people still eat dinner together. Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, of course. You know, in my experience, to having been a pastor for 25 years, I have not yet heard someone say to me, someone who is dying, I wish I had worked more, or I wish I had visited this place or that place. When there is a regret, oftentimes it is something like this. I wish I had spent more time with my family. Always like that. I wish I had spent more time with my family. I remember Lucas, one of my professors in the seminary. He said to me, and he said this when his two children were not attending church, were backsliding, they were backsliding. And he said to me, I wish I had prayed more for my children. That was his regret. I remember hearing that. I said, “this is my professor regretting.” You look at him as a godly professor, but he himself has this regret, and he thinks that he had not prayed more enough for his children. Now, of course, we think of God's sovereignty, right? At the end of the day, if your children is not among God's elect, they will not be saved, but we don't use that as an excuse. We have the responsibility, and one of our responsibilities is to pray for our children, and part of our family worship is prayer. Lucas Holtvluwer Yep, it's a good reminder. You mentioned the hymn, I have decided to follow Jesus in your talk, and just how that's an example of family leadership. Can you expand on that, and just kind of explain for our listeners what that's like? Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, so there is one version that says this is the story behind this hymn. I have decided to follow Jesus. Several years ago, many, many years ago, there was a family in, in India, I believe, northern part of India, and this family was living in, in a village known for headhunting, really, really terrible, terrible village, pagan, pagan village, but a missionary from the West came, and to make the story short, through this missionary, this family of that village in that I think North East India came to know the Lord Jesus Christ, and when the chief of that village found out about the conversion of this family, especially the conversion of the father. He, he pressured him, he wanted him to recant his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and he said, "If, if you don't recant, we will kill, we will kill your wife.” And basically he said, “I have decided to follow Jesus, not turning back, not turning back.” And again the chief said, “Well, if, if you don't really recant, we're going to kill not only your wife, but all your children as well.” And he added, “the world behind me, the cross before me, no turning back, no turning back.” In other words, “I have made this decision. No matter what happens, whatever you do to me, I will not recount my faith in Christ, because I have made this resolution to follow Jesus, no matter what.” And by the grace of God, by the way, they killed his wife, and they also killed him, and even when he was one, one witness said that as they were persecuting, or they were about to kill this father, they kept hearing him say, “the world behind me, the cross before me, no turning back, no turning back”. Now the chief of that village was so touched by the testimony of this father that he declared, “I too will follow Jesus”, and by the grace of God that village turned to be Christian, that pagan village as amazing story. Now, of course, that's a version I have a friend who challenged that. He's a hymnologist, but anyway, if that was true, beautiful story, really. And this will also help us appreciate this hymn, because a lot of people, especially from a Reformed tradition, would not sing that hymn. I have decided to follow Jesus. I think because they associate that with decisionism, or is it Believism? That no, we don't make a decision. Again, the idea of, you know, choosing, we react to that, we become allergic, but it's a biblical expression that indeed we make, we need to make a choice. Yes, we believe in the doctrine of election, but to believe in Jesus is your choice. I can't make that choice for you, Lucas. Yeah, through the spirit, it's my choice that I have to make that I need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but of course in that context here you have a believer who is making a decision to follow Jesus. Now, so it's really within the context of sanctification, and family worship should also be understood within the context of sanctification. In other words, we don't do family worship to gain God's favor. We don't say, "Okay, children, let's do this so that somehow in doing so God can save us.” No, there is no salvific power in family devotion, devotion, but God can use it in the context of sanctification to strengthen our faith. And, and also, God can use that if you have a child who is not yet a believer, as the child hears the gospel from that family worship. Then you pray that the Lord will use that for the conversion of your unbelieving child. Lucas Holtvluwer Yep, it's a, it's a powerful means, means of grace, right? Dr. Brian Najapfour Exactly. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, 100% In the home where the husband is not the strongest in his faith, or is not a great leader, but the wife desires her husband to be so, and if, if a wife is listening to this podcast, or whatnot, and thinks that, yeah, we should kind of get this whole family worship thing going, and you know, Dr. Najapfour is making some great points here, and we need to really do this in our home, but doesn't feel like her husband is able to lead her in that regard, or whatnot. What would you kind of say to a wife in that position to help foster some of these habits, even if the whole family's not bought in, so to speak. Dr. Brian Najapfour So interestingly, you brought that up, that question. One of the attendees at the Gointage conference was a mother whose husband doesn't want to have family worship at home, and so I said, “well, you do it, you do it, you lead it. If your husband will not do it, then you take the responsibility, and you pray that as you do that, your husband will be touched by it, will be convicted of his own sin”, because we should take lead, we fathers, that's our primary role, not our wives, but if we're not home, then the wives will take over the responsibility, that happens like in my case too, as a pastor, when I travel, if I speak at this conference. Sometimes I'll be gone for three days, four days. Obviously, I can join my family for family worship. Now, does it mean that we then stop? No, they will continue. So, what we do if I'm at home, they will read a different passage, because we want to save the series. So, our goal is to read the entire Bible. I don't know how long will it take us, but so be it. If it takes us five years, four years, I don't know when. It's okay. So then my wife will read another passage because we want to save the series. So, I would encourage that that wife to take the lead. Do it, do it, and pray to the Lord that eventually your husband will join you, will come to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. And sometimes to Lucas, I think I'll give you an example. When I was in Michigan, I met this young man, well, not really young man, he was already in his late 20s, and he was married with kids, and I remember he said to me, "Pastor,” he said to me, "you know what really bothered me when I was growing up, I never heard my dad talk about spiritual things, I never heard my dad talk about the gospel. My dad would, we would have, quote unquote, our family worship, which simply means he would read, and that's it, and then pray, that's it. He would not expound it, elaborate it, nothing at all.” So he saw, he saw that as, as, as, as really a problem. Well, it's good to have that. That's as a blessing, because God could use the mere reading of His word for our conversion, but for him now as a father of his own children, he wants to also explain what they've read, and for him to do that, he needs to prepare, he needs to read, and that's why the idea of family devotion to requires preparation, it has to be intentional, and we need to be prepared as well, which means that, well, as a father, if you, if you can watch a movie for two hours, or if you can watch a baseball game. Now, I remember someone invited me to watch a baseball game, went to the stadium to Toronto Blue Jays. First time, I would not do that when I was in Michigan, no idea about Blue Jays, but so I remember I had to leave three hours before the time. Lucas Holtvluwer It’s quite a commitment to get there. If you go through Toronto. Dr. Brian Najapfour Yes! I had to walk for 15 minutes, because of…. Lucas Holtvluwer the take the train Dr. Brian Najapfour …station, yeah, train station, because we parked, we left my car, I forgot, not the older Lucas Holtvluwer At the older shot go station? Dr. Brian Najapfour No, somewhere here in Hamilton area, I think, and then what, oh yeah, Burlington station, yeah, so we left my car there to the train, yeah, and then the last stop, well, before the stadium, and then you still had to walk for 15, 10, 10 to 15 minutes, and then you had to be there before the time, before you know it, my whole day was gone just to watch this game, Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah Dr. Brian Najapfour One game, and I had to spend, because then the hot dogs and very expensive bottled water, so in my mind I said, “wow, it's really commitment.” Then can we not do the same, right? Can we not commit to doing this family devotion? You spend 30 minutes to read in advance, if you, if you're not confident where you, what you're going to say, then read it in advance, and read commentaries. There are many commentaries that you can buy, read books that will help you develop your skill in family worship. Lucas Holtvluwer There’s so much information out there. Dr. Brian Najapfour So, there's no really excuse now, Lucas. It has to be intentional, Lucas Holtvluwer it's a mindset, Dr. Brian Najapfour A commitment. Lucas Holtvluwer yeah, and like, as a young man leading his family, too, like, it's just, yeah, you see, like, I grew up with, with this sort of habit of family worship, but to, yeah, to think about it this intentionally, and to, to really, yeah, make sure it's a priority is, is definitely a mindset shift, which, yeah, seeps in from the culture, you don't realize it, but you have to, you really have to put your stake in the ground and be like we're doing this, and like, or… Dr. Brian Najapfour It will never happen. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, you're not going to just find your way into it, it's not a natural thing to do, right? Dr. Brian Najapfour And Lucas, to the more you do it, you get better, yeah of course, maybe your first, your first year, or first few months of doing it, don't expect to be an expert right away, because even myself, I'm not an expert. You always learn, and what's wonderful, too, your wife can help you. When you ask your children, they say things that I've never thought about. Oh, like it's amazing to use in my sermon preparation, too. I said, "Oh, I'm going to use that idea, precious idea. And even when kids ask questions, like they ask you, "Okay, why did God create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? That's not fair. Why, if God knew that Adam would sin, why did He create Adam? Why? Why? There is hell? You know those questions now. There are times when to be honest and say good question, and I don't know the answer. Let me, let me study that, that subject. I'll maybe, yeah, yeah, and be honest. And then that, that should make you excited. Yeah, excited to do that. Okay, I have an assignment. My child is asking me this question. I want to, I want to answer it. Yep, so we can learn. We can learn. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah. Well, it's nice that your kids always start young and then you get older, right? So, like, I have a two year old and three year old, and it's like, okay, you get some of the questions and you get it, you get a while to kind of grow in it, and as a teacher and explainer, and yeah, it's a blessing that way, for sure, too. Okay, I feel like I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing we're running tighter on time, so we get in the old wrap-up symbol here. So I'll hit you with a couple quicker ones to kind of end off. Yeah, I guess we kind of touched on this in terms of like people might object to the family worship to say, like, oh, this is too formulaic, and it's just like, you know, you put these inputs in, you get these outputs out. Where's the Holy Spirit in this? How do we.. how do you.. I guess keep that in mind when you're doing your family worship, or when you're pastoring other families to say, like, yes, put these habits in place, these are good habits, holy habits, even. They serve your sanctification in your sanctification process, but they are not the end all be all in themselves, either. Right? How do you kind of help people to kind of keep, keep both of those things in hand when they're thinking about family worship, that it's not this like easy formula, like your kids aren't guaranteed to be saved, because you're doing family worship, right? Yeah, how do you kind of guide people through that process? Dr. Brian Najapfour You just answered it on to the next. That will save us time. Lucas Holtvluwer That will save us time. Dr. Brian Najapfour It’s no guarantee. There's no guarantee, not because you have family worship, doesn't mean that all your children will be saved, but the Lord is pleased to use that means too, to save them. So, Lucas Holtvluwer And it's a calling. Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, it’s a calling, our responsibility, our duty. So we, we do it mindful that at the end of the day it is the Holy Spirit who will bless this, this means, and that's why we prayed too. Yep, we pray before, we pray after. Lord, bless this family worship. If Lucas Holtvluwer If you had one closing thought, for maybe in particular, like for fathers in the home, a kind of a closing like charge to leave with them, what would that be? Dr. Brian Najapfour I would say maybe addressing those fathers who have not yet done family worship. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah. Dr. Brian Najapfour Do it now, don't wait. Time is time is too short, and think about this too. Lucas Holtvluwer You only have a few years to train them, Dr. Brian Najapfour By the time they turn 18, they want to be independent, they might move, maybe go elsewhere for college, then you don't have that opportunity anymore. So, basically, you have 18 years to train them, and if we think that, well, that's a lot of years. No, that means 18 summers, only 18 summers. So do it now, and if let's say you're doing it, but like what we discussed, maybe you're just reading, you're not really elaborating, guiding your family. Then pray to the Lord and look for tools that can help you. There are many books, resources, reform book services, they can always ask them, do you have books on family worship that I can, I can use, learn, or podcast, something like this, a similar podcast, for sure. They can google online also how to, how do it. Listen to messages on Family Worship Sermon audio.com is a good resource. Lucas Holtvluwer Come to your conference. Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, come to our conference. So, my point is that there's no excuse. No, do it, do it now, and, and do it as an expression of your gratitude for what God has done to us, and for us, and in us, and through us in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Lucas Holtvluwer Wonderful. Well, Dr. Najapfour, really appreciate your time on the podcast. It's been a pleasure. Dr. Brian Najapfour Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Lucas, and to our listeners. Thank Lucas Holtvluwer And to our listeners, thank you for listening along. And if you have any questions, comments, concerns, feel free to send them in, and maybe we'll have you back one day again too. Dr. Brian Najapfour Wonderful, I'll be delighted again. Lucas Holtvluwer Wonderful. Okay, it's been real talk. We'll catch you next time. Closing Thanks for tuning in to Real Talk. If this episode inspired you, please share it with a friend, so you can continue this conversation in your own life. We encourage you to send us your feedback, or let us know who you would like to hear on the podcast. You can email us at Real Talk at Performed perspective.ca This episode is produced by Tyler Vanderwood, Lucas Holtfleur, and Mariah Taminga in partnership with Performed Perspective. Until next time, keep having Real Talk....

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Interview with an artist

Laura Kroesbergen’s hyperrealistic animals

Capturing a moment in pastel ***** 'A Whole New World'15.5x21.5in.This lion cub's inquisitive expression portrays the universal curiosity of the young - a good reminder to be ever curious about ourselves and those around us. In her childhood, Laura Kroesbergen found she struggled with confidence in her relationships with people, but when she was in nature or with animals she could relax and be herself. Animals’ ability to tune into non-verbal cues and communicate through them seemed, to her, to bring them a softer, calmer way of life. And horses, in particular, inspired her with their majesty, and freedom. They became a major source of inspiration for her works in pastel. Her pastel drawings are filled with the texture of hair on the horses’ necks, and veins outlining their muscles, as they gallop across the field or gaze wisely at you. Horses were her first drawing interest. However, after encouragement from her mother and others, she began to create drawings of other wildlife as well – prowling panthers, curious lion cubs, and guarded antelopes. Her faith is an inescapable part of her work. As she explains, “Since going through severe depression in my early 20s, I have come to recognize the value of life, and though my focus is still on the animal world, I now try to bring some of that ‘life essence’ into each drawing.” 'Night Prowler'24x18in.The black panther (aka the black leopard), is a melanistic leopard with a recessive gene that produces more pigment, thus creating the black coat. These leopards are mostly found in the forested areas of Africa and Asia, however, this particular leopardess lives wild in the African country of Kenya. She intuits what makes living things tick, and translates that into her work. Detail is also important: “Working in the field of hyper- or photo-realism also brings the unique experience of learning the subtle colors and intricate patterns our Creator has put into His creation. The more detail I dive into, the more detail there is to see. This gives me a beautiful glimpse of how infinite our glorious God is.” For Laura, doing her absolute best is a big part of how she brings her faith into her work. This ties into the intricate detail and realism she always attempts to capture. “The attitude of, 'it's the best I can do,' if it's not realistic, is not something I allow for myself,” she says. She tries to combine the accuracy of a photograph with the added emotion or “essence” of what she’s drawing – essentially capturing a moment in time. This influenced her choice of pastels as a medium. At first, she did all her drawings primarily in grayscale, because she found capturing color much more difficult. But after watching an online time-lapse video of an artist using pastels, she was surprised to find herself thinking, “I can probably do that.” To her delight, she found she was able to create beautiful hyperrealist drawings in pastel on her first attempt. She sees this as a major way God was working in her life at that time, as she was laid up with a fractured pelvis and was asking Him about what she could learn during her time of recovery. 'A Mother's Love'18x24in.This pastel painting captures a quiet moment between a zebra mother and son. “Pastels are a great way for me to achieve more of a 'painterly' effect without having to switch to a wet medium…though trying out painting is on my list,” she explains. She is fascinated by how much color can be put out by a simple pastel pencil. And the paper she uses can hold many layers of pencil without getting too saturated, and it contains felt so she doesn’t need to use a fixative spray to keep the pastel from smudging. She is currently not working as an artist full-time, though she did pursue this in the past, and continues to draw and create. “I do wonder in what ways God will have me use my skills in the future,” she says, “since this is a talent He has given me.” You can see more of Laura Kroesbergen’s work at laurachristinefineart.com. She also does pet portraits, which you can view there. Or contact her by email with your questions about art-related things at [email protected].   Harma-Mae Smit loves to write and think about art, despite not being an artist herself. She loves how art can reflect the Creator Himself. Send Harm-Mae Smit suggestions for artists to profile at [email protected], including their contact information....

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Technology

Less screens = more life

What we learned by stepping away from our phones for 10 days ***** We were hoping for 200 to sign up. Turns out a lot of us were ready for this – more than 900 registered for RP’s July 21-30 screen-fast challenge, and we heard about others who joined the fast without signing up. Safe to say, over a thousand people across the country came together to put our screens in their place. That is amazing! But maybe it shouldn’t have been surprising. God’s people know He wants us to make good use of the time He’s given us, and we know that our phones too often have us wasting moments that turn into minutes, which can add up to lost hours each week. We needed to hit the reset and get back control. So how’d we all do? Of the 160 responses we received, three-quarters managed to stay away from their screens for 9 days or better. They also shared stories, tips on what worked, what they found toughest, suggestions on how we could do this even better next time, and what got them most excited about the fast. And we’re very excited to share their thoughts with you. EYE OPENING One term kept popping up in the feedback – “eye-opening.” “It was a very humbling experience for me. I am a fairly busy person as it is, between nursing school, 2 kids, and running a household, but I will say that the amount of hours I still managed to waste away doing mindless scrolling or pointless video-watching was disconcerting, to put it lightly.” “I thought I was pretty good about staying off my phone, but I really had to remind myself not to pick it up. I've only had a phone since October, and already it has become such an integral part of my life.” "The screen-fast started while we were away on vacation, and what a blessing this was! At first, I thought it would be easy; after all, I had books to read, family to visit with, and a beach calling my name. I had deleted all of my social media accounts a couple of years ago. I thought I barely used my phone in comparison to others. Boy, was I wrong. I never realized how often I was reaching for my phone, oftentimes for no specific purpose other than to fill time or cure boredom! Looking at the weather, reading the news, playing games – my phone sucked me in even without social media being present! The screen-fast has truly been a blessing. It reminded me of the value of being present, of shared experiences, of all the little moments that I would have missed out on had I been scrolling on my phone. I learned that it's okay to have moments of quiet, stillness, and even boredom! Sometimes, it is in these quiet moments of being in creation that God speaks the loudest: His power in the wind and waves, His beauty in the flowers, His tenderness, care, and grace towards me in that He used these moments to calm any anxieties that were lurking within me. Thank you, Reformed Perspective, for encouraging this experience!" “My oldest (11) had a hard time sticking to the screen-fast and caved 3 times. Hard to believe how much of a pull a screen has on a person! Makes me want to live in the Little House on the Prairie times, where screens just weren’t available and outside play was their entertainment.” “I just itched to check social media and would find myself comforted by just holding my phone close, even though there was nothing to look at. I realized that I don't like this about myself.” “It was well needed and brought my screen time down to about 15-30 minutes a day from my usual 2-2.5 hours. I hope to keep my screen time down as much as I can because I’m so much more productive and observant of the world around me when I’m not on it.” TOGETHER IS EASIER Some participants didn’t know anyone else doing it, even with a thousand across the country involved. Those with friends and family joining in found it much easier. “My sister and I challenged each other and we both finished (almost) successfully. We both started reading again after having lost the habit of reading and gained the habit of scrolling. I’m very happy to be reading again and I noticed how much I can get done with the time I used to waste. I will definitely be more careful with my screen time in the future.” “I found that since my family didn’t participate, it was hard to maintain self-control when others were using their devices.” “I did it with my wife – we found that especially when we were both free in the evening, we would be more productive, but also, we spent more quality time with each other. It made me realize how often I would just reach for my phone when I was bored or between tasks; it feels great to have kicked that habit.” "We had family come for summer holidays and they willingly partook (kids too)! Fishing and bike rides at 7 am rather than cartoons…win! We enjoyed creation so much more, especially in the evenings. I loved having it as a challenge; it kept me more accountable and successful. Thanks for doing this for us!" DON’T ALWAYS NEED INSTANT ANSWERS “I have a tendency to google everything as it comes up in a conversation, and not being able to was refreshing, and kept me more focused on the person instead of the topic.” “The thing that surprised me was how often I had the compulsion to Google a question that popped into my mind, or research the proper way to do something, or make a quick purchase of something I remembered I needed. I realized that technology is very helpful, but also there is benefit in taking a pause, making a shopping list, or asking a friend rather than Google when I have a gardening question. My 10-year-old said that she found more space to be creative when the computer and TV was off. " “My kids didn't miss their own screen time, but they realized how much they asked me to look things up for them. Not having immediate access to information is not such a bad thing.” FAMILY-LIFE Less screens = more life was evident on the home front. “We had meals at the kitchen table instead of in the living room while watching YouTube.” “I noticed our kids really improved in playing for longer periods of time. If they complained they were bored, I would suggest they try an activity for 20 minutes, and often 1 hour later they would still be busy.” “We did do more different things together when we didn't spend as much time playing games or watching videos on the TV or computer. It forced my kids, in particular, to stretch their imagination a bit to come up with more different things to do. The intermittent cries of 'I'm bored!' were met with, 'Well, then you need to find something to do!' My kids had always been good at keeping busy, but it was good for them to exercise those creative muscles, and remind us all of all the options that we have, both on and off the screen.” “The main things I've been struggling with were not wasting time on my phone (e.g., games, videos), not using my phone during time with my toddler, and not using my phone in bed, so I focused on those and was able to significantly improve in those areas. It definitely helped with spending quality time with my son without distractions so that I was more focused on him and his needs.” “It helped me reconnect with my wife. Instead of sitting on the couch consuming content in the evenings, we went for more walks and had more time to talk about what was going on.” “There was a lot more interacting happening throughout the family, and everyone seemed happier. It felt like a lot less fighting happened.” “It was easier to connect and interact with my kids. I realized how much I used my phone when they were awake even though I thought I was being conscious of not using it while they were awake." “My children (4 and under) appeared less needy, and I think it is because I was more focused on what was going on around me.” “Because I was screen-free, my kids didn't even ask for screen time. My 18-year-old daughter loved it. She noticed she was far more creative and read more books (which is her natural habitat) than when she had a screen to distract her.” “It was harder than I thought it would be. Especially right before bed. But not being on screens before bed allowed more time for my wife and I to spend time together.” WANTING TO BE AN EXAMPLE “Helped me to realize that in a screen-filled world, as a parent and adult, I am an example to my daughter and the younger generation as to how much a phone has a hold on me." “It was better when the children are around not to have YouTube on in the background; I could be more present with them, even while doing dishes. I think I will continue to try to save my Podcast/YouTube listening for when the children are in bed.” “I am disappointed that I didn’t do this sooner. My oldest kiddo is 7 and I feel like my phone has been a large part of her life. It’s my job now, as it was before, to teach her, along with my other kids, how to use this technology properly and not to use and abuse it. I am striving to use it less and less, and more for emergencies, or for the free time that I’ve allowed myself to use it.” DEVOTIONS Many mentioned how helpful the fast was for their devotions, making sure time with the Lord didn’t get crowded out by inconsequentials. “Just made me realize I need to read my bible FIRST……not after the morning's scroll!” "I found I actually had time to do my devotions in the morning, even if my kids were up. Before I had been grabbing my phone if I wasn’t going to have perfect uninterrupted time for devotions.” “My morning devotions improved immediately! When you don’t have your phone in the morning you really do need to replace it with something. " READING In addition to the Bible, many, many other books (and at least one magazine) were read too. One person shared: "More reading in 10 days than the last 3 years!” "I definitely did more reading! I haven’t picked up a fictional book in a long time because, as a busy mom, I found it a ‘waste of time’ to read fiction…. somehow scrolling on my phone every evening to have some mindless down time was better?! I don’t think so. I enjoy that time in the evening to relax for a bit, but it is much better spent reading an engaging book!” “I read the whole RP magazine front to back in the moments that I would pick up my phone when I was bored.” “The biggest difference for me was dedicating more intentional time to read. I managed to finish 3 of Jane Austen's novels. I'm thrilled to add them to my recommended reading list!” “…relearned how to read a book in under a day. Been through so many books.” “…for downtime, instead of watching a show every night like I normally do, I read more and had more conversations with my family as well.” BETTER MENTAL PLACE Sociologist Jonathan Haidt is convinced that social media is fueling this generation’s teen mental health crisis, but doing without Facebook and Instagram isn’t just good for the kids. “In regards to social media particularly, the fast made me realize that while social media can be enjoyable and good, it's also almost like a subconscious burden to try to ‘keep up’ with everyone and everything all the time. Being off of it for 10 days was really freeing and refreshing.” “I… learned that when I'm anxious, instead of running to Google to try to ease my anxiety, I should run to God in prayer.” “It felt good, in the sense that my brain didn't feel distracted by useless information coming in at a fast pace. I found I could spend time on my screen sorting photos, but I didn't scroll Instagram. It took a few days to notice that my brain felt a little less full, and I felt totally focused on my life, instead of having a 20-minute binge session after lunch to be inundated with strangers’ lives. I did read more, during that after-lunch quiet time, and also before bed. My screen time didn't interfere with family time, it was just something I would do to 'wind down' or 'relax' once kids were napping or in bed for the night. I didn't miss it. One evening I did log on to find a recipe I'd saved on Instagram and ended up scrolling...I felt gross. It felt like I had to re-join the real world when I finally put my phone down, and it became very obvious to me how little value it adds to my life for the amount of time spent on the app.” “One of the biggest things for me was not checking my work email on my phone. I didn’t realize how much head space that had been taking up! It was a big relaxant to have set hours to check only on my laptop.” “My brain felt quieter. All those little moments where I would have quickly checked Facebook, or scrolled, to ‘relax’ were removed from my day and I didn't realize how much they cluttered my mind. The screen-fast really helped me to be more aware of that, which will hopefully give me more control over those impulses to reach for my phone moving forward. My husband and I both did it and found ourselves going on more evening bike rides, having more chats, and just doing more quality time things than we did before. It was so refreshing, and I think we definitely feel more connected. I also had more focused time for devotions, and because I deleted many apps from my phone, I had no reason to pick it up and get distracted. I'm hoping to keep a lot of the habits enforced by the fast because I definitely need them, and life is better when your phone has less time in your hand!” “What a beautiful challenge! My experience was that I suddenly became much more present: in my home life, my church life, and my friend life. It brought me closer to God in my devotional time, provided time for reflection, enabled me to read most of a book, and granted me a peace that I didn't even realize was missing.” “I also felt less stress because I was not being inundated with news…. Although a person never thinks they are spending ‘that much’ time on their phone, it's not just the physical act of scrolling or being on social media. It occupies mental space after you put the phone down. Your attention is divided and things you see and do on your phone inadvertently affect your mood and ability to focus throughout the day. You may be worrying about something you saw in the news and it will affect how you treat people around you, even if you cannot do anything about it, or it doesn't even really affect you. You may be in the habit of checking your phone for notifications every few minutes (you'd be surprised how often you may do this) and it can make the simplest tasks take much longer than required, which will in turn make you feel frustrated. The less time you spend on your phone, the more wisdom you will use when you do pick it up. I noticed I was much less likely to scroll Instagram and more naturally inclined to listen to a sermon in the evening after the children were in bed. I was always feeling stressed about the time I thought I was spending on my phone, and appreciate the push to try just being on it less. It has certainly been an eye-opener for me!” “I found myself more content with everything, and could easily enjoy hobbies I had long forgotten. I found myself thanking God for the little moments and was reminded of the blessings He has given me." “I listen to a lot of podcasts and audiobooks while doing housework, and not doing that for 10 days made me realize that always having something on to listen to does not help me be present with my family. It was good to have the quiet space, and engage in some spiritual warfare by taking thoughts captive that are not obedient to Christ. I’m not going back on any social medias because I’ve broken the spell that says I will miss out or not be in-the-know…. They take up too much brain space that is needed for more important things.” BETTER SLEEP "I feel I slept better because of no screen time before bed, and I read a biblical book in the morning instead of going on Facebook.” “…I had to get used to sleeping without going on my phone right before bed. I had dreams that I could remember in the morning!” MORE PRODUCTIVITY Ten minutes here, and ten minutes there, can really add up in time wasted, but also in time put to good use. “I somewhat reluctantly signed up for the screen-fast, as my wife and kids were participating, but reflecting on it now, I can see God's hand working through them and the screen-fast. I spent more time reading the Bible and additional study material, and more time in prayer and reflection. I was able to think more clearly after the first few days, as the cheap distraction of screens was gone. This gave me time and focus to think through issues at work which I've been contending with for around a year, and come to difficult decisions there that I had perhaps been avoiding.” “I am working on a baby blanket for my son (knitting) and I was able to set a minimum for how much I wanted to complete on it daily, a minimum that seemed impossible to me before, and I was actually able to meet the minimum no problem.” "My husband participated as well, and has continued to not go onto social media. I found it most difficult to not pop onto social media when waiting for the mundane things, like water to boil/meat to cook. I would often go onto social media in these moments; at first it felt odd to not scroll, but I quickly would start to tidy the kitchen in these moments, so the result is a cleaner house :) and I did spend more time in God's Word, and reading short devotions here and there instead of picking up my phone." “The first few days I noticed a significant amount of improvement in my productivity. Without doom-scrolling on my phone, I was able to head out for a walk, dust off my book, and go to bed on time. I was able to spend a little more time with family and friends. Rather than watching a movie with my girlfriend after a long day, we decided to head out for a drive to enjoy the summer weather, which was awesome! I was able to spend more time reading my Bible before bed by keeping my phone in the kitchen, and used a good old-fashioned alarm clock to wake me up.” DOWNSIDES While there was lots to love about putting our phones aside for a time, there were some downsides too. “…I also found that it made me less likely to organize get-togethers if I had to phone people up instead of fire off a quick text; the kids and I ended up not doing as many things with friends or neighbors. I did make a few nice phone calls to people, since I was conscious of phoning instead of texting.” “I had a hard time not listening to my audiobooks and podcasts. I was more available for my kids (when I listen to audios, I have noise-cancelling headphones), but I had less ambition to do projects around the house that I would normally listen to something while doing. I also missed watching something at the end of a long day, but did enjoy my walks, and more reading of a physical book compared to an audio.” "I felt very disconnected from my family without WhatsApp group messaging! I was available via regular messaging, but it turns out that one-to-one messages are a rarity... if you aren’t on the group chat there isn't much to say. My 10-year-old son said: ‘It affected me because you didn't know as much about what other people in our family were doing.’ Keeping email off my phone (both work and personal) will stay. It was very restful to not be constantly checking emails and going down rabbit holes in the moment." “I missed seeing update posts from friends on Instagram or Facebook. For example, there was a family wedding and I wanted to go on social media to see some photos. I felt that I was missing out, not being able to do this. I came to the conclusion that family and friend updates can be one of the fun things about social media.” LASTING IMPACT? How can we apply the lessons learned? Some are planning on “having periodic screen-fasts in the future.” “…our family has decided to do a ‘modified fast’ for the rest of the summer and this was initiated by our children. Our stage of life (everyone working and/or attending post-secondary) means we don’t often have large blocks of time together but it was nice to spend more time in the evening sharing about our days and chatting.” “Going forward, I’ve used the settings in my phone to limit my time on certain apps. I’ve also cut out around half of the influencers I follow on Instagram so that I’m only following people I learn from (news, DIY, Christian content, etc.)" “Now that I’m done, I’m way more okay with leaving my phone in a bag or even at home.” “Going forward, I will be deleting social media apps from my phone. Thank you for prompting us to give this challenge a try! I think that it's fair to say that it will be life-changing.” “I intend to do this screen-fast again in the future and strongly encourage anyone who has not done it to do so, and aim to grow in service of our gracious God.” “I enjoyed the screen fast, and hope to do it again, and include more of my family members.” “From the get-go, I decided not to try 10 days but figured I could do 5. And you know what? It was easy! And it was good for me. I know I spend too much time on social media and playing games on my phone. I plan to do it again on a regular basis.” TIPS The most common tip mentioned was to delete social media apps from our phones. Another idea was to buy an alarm clock instead of using your phone to wake up. Here’s more… “…eliminate phones from your bedroom. Reading my Bible nightly is way more likely to happen when Instagram is more than a click away. That Christian influencer's advice might be insightful, but God's Word will not return empty (Isaiah 55:11)." “I …have continued a few habits I built, like delaying the first phone check of the day.” “I found freedom also in separating my phone from bedtime and wake time. This led to more prayer time. I think I was allowing the phone, instead of faith, to ease me into my day and I’m looking forward to continuing practice.” “We realized that phones are still an essential part of our lives but that the 'social media' part of it doesn't need to be so extensive. A regular phone call to someone can be so enjoyable and truly connecting. I have since called many people and just had a good chat. Hoping to keep this method up. I will keep my notifications 'OFF.'” “I made a rule for myself a couple years ago, that at the start of every day, I may not look at my phone until after my breakfast devotions were finished. It really helps to be very disciplined about not falling into bad habits. Make rules and stick to them. I also tell myself that it's okay to be bored.”   Cartoons by Hannah Penninga....

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Internet

Is AI helping you, or dumbing you down? Yes.

3 questions to help us use AI better. ***** The Preacher declares in Ecclesiastes 1:9 that “there is nothing new under the sun.” He was saying it with a sense of despair, but there’s a reality there that can prove helpful too. Even with something newfangled like AI, the issues aren’t all new. And because we’ve seen some of this before, we can look to history for guidance. So here are three questions to help us look to the past to see how we can best use today’s AI. Q. 1: Am I using AI to skip my exercise? For as long as there have been schools, there’s probably been boys learning how to do division in ways their math teacher wasn’t intending. If little Timmy and a couple of his third grade buddies did their homework together, the three of them would quickly realize that an assignment of 15 questions could be done 3 times as quickly if they did 5 questions each and shared their answers. That gets the assignment done in record time, but these “get ‘er done” boys misunderstood the point. The teacher’s goal isn’t simply to get 15 right answers from them – she could go to the back of the teacher’s edition if that was all she was after. What she wants is for her students to go through the struggle of working through each of the 15 questions so that their brain muscles will grow. What Timmy has done instead is the equivalent of recruiting his two friends to each attend a third of his basketball practice for him. That’d be a better cheat actually, because it wouldn’t take him long to figure out that his shooting percentage isn’t going to improve so long as he isn’t putting up the shots. The issue is older even than schools, addressed in various ways throughout Scripture, but maybe most pointedly in Proverbs 10:4: “Lazy hands make for poverty, but diligent hands bring wealth” and Galatians 6:7: “Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.” Now, in our AI age, there are students using ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini to skip their school “workouts” in this updated fashion, and still not making the connection as to how that’ll keep them mentally and spiritually flabby, stopping them from growing in knowledge, wisdom, and capacity. Adults have their own version of this problem, complicated by the reality that sometimes it is just about “getting ‘er done,” while other times it’s about needing to get stretched and refined by the work you put in. Need a pile of rocks moved? Then having a couple of friends help is a great idea. Got access to some tech that will do the heavy lifting for you? Great, go drive that tractor over here. In an office setting, AI can help us move all sorts of “rocks,” by doing the big-effort-but-little-thought tasks of quickly compiling your week’s billable hours, assembling your spreadsheets into an array of insightful, colorful pie charts, or gathering and summarizing vast amounts of research material. But if, like little Timmy, we thought it was always about the results, we’d miss out on when it’s important to put in the sweat. There’s a Stephen King quote about how “I write to find out what I think” and it’s exactly there that AI might be most harming us. We don’t all have to be writers, but if we’re going to be thinkers, then we need to be able to get our thoughts down on paper, or up on a computer, or batted around with our coworkers. That process will allow them to be tested and refined, and sometimes discarded. It’s the sweat invested that helps us really think through things. AI can even be a part of the process, being a part of the batting-around refinement. But we can’t use it to skip over that process. When we should or shouldn’t use AI will depend on whether we just need to get ‘er done, or whether we should be putting in the exercise to increase our own capacity, knowledge, and wisdom. Figuring out which we’re doing is complicated by the fact that our jobs are going to regularly involve a mix of both. A pastor might use AI as an upgraded search engine to much more quickly gather up what his most trusted theologians have said about the text he’s planning to preach on. But he can’t pull a Timmy and have AI write his sermon, because his job isn’t simply to read a sermon, but to glorify God in the preparation of it, so that he can tailor it to the flock God has entrusted to him and not to AI. Q. 2: Am I owning my output? And that takes us to the issue of responsibility. AI brings up some powerful temptations on this front, but, again, it’s nothing new for Man to try to avoid blame by sidestepping his own responsibility. “The man said, ‘The woman you put here with me – she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it’” (Gen. 3:12). With AI’s instantaneous output, what that prompts is the very strong temptation to skip over the “is this actually right?” stage. After all, if you’ve generated a whole report in seconds, doesn’t it seem weird to spend half an hour checking through it? And that’s how you get output like the pictured post from the US Department of Education. It was meant to promote jobs that AI isn’t going to replace any time soon, but it went viral for showing what kind of output AI can provide when the humans in charge aren’t really taking charge. Pipes, pipes, everywhere… and what is that tool she’s using? In our day-to-day, this temptation will pop up in small ways, like using Gemini’s auto-response to reply to an email you’ve barely read. See how impressed your coworker will be when he pops by your office door for a follow-up and you can’t recall what he’s even talking about because your brain was never engaged. This isn’t a big thing – it might be the difference between having AI complete an email response in 3 seconds that you should have taken 30 seconds to do yourself so you’d know and recall what you wrote. In our schools, AI can be used to generate math and spelling worksheets, and history and geography pop quizzes in just seconds. For the most part, that’s just AI helping teachers “move rocks,” and what a wonderful resource for them to have. But their students will be wondering why teachers can turn to AI to do the heavy lifting when their pupils aren’t allowed to. To keep students’ hypocrisy-detectors from firing off, teachers will then need to model the highest standards of responsible AI usage. Practically speaking, that means putting in the time proofreading whatever they have AI outputting. How can they convince students they need to put in the sweat if they’re not willing to sweat themselves? Q. 3: What’s missing from my AI output? What makes a lot of AI output cheesy? What’s “off” about it? The other side of this question would be, “What makes something valuable?” There’ll be a subjective nature to any answer to that question because there’s a degree to which beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One person might like Rembrandt, another AI-manufactured alien landscapes. To each their own. But a friend passed along something he’d learned from a Tim Keller sermon on 1 Cor. 13. Here Paul makes the point that prophecies, tongues, and even charity, without love, are nothing. While we were excited about all that AI could do just a year ago, now we’ve coined the term “AI slop” and lament the “AI gloss” detectable in its pictures and written work. Maybe what Paul is saying explains this reaction. Someone could use AI to produce a “new” Rembrandt or maybe a “new” piece by Bach, manufactured in seconds by having these artists’ styles convincingly mimicked. The result could be beautiful, and we might not detect even a hint of “AI gloss.” Yet would we treasure these new works like the old? No. Why? Because AI allowed them to be created without sweat or thought. They were made without love. Love is why the kids’ art on Oma’s fridge is treasured – because of the love going both ways. And love is why the poems many households craft to accompany Christmas presents were better before AI was there to perfect them. Butchered meters and forced rhymes – and the care involved in crafting each line – were what made the merriment. Could an aspiring poet partner time and intent with AI to lovingly craft a poem for his beloved wife? Certainly. AI usage doesn’t have to be loveless. But AI without love? That’s nothing at all. Jon Dykstra realizes he should write his beloved wife more poetry, with or without AI help....

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Parenting

Real Talk: How to lead your family

This episode can also be found on your favorite podcast platform: Spotify, Apple, Podbean, Amazon Music, or on our website. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel and our podcast profiles so you can be notified when new episodes are released. Please note that the transcript below was automatically generated and quickly edited so it may contain some errors. ***** Lucas Holtvluwer Many men say they will die for their wives and children, but the real question is, will you actually live for them? In a time where leadership in the home is often misunderstood, avoided, or pushed into extremes, we want to bring clarity back to what scripture calls men to, in the strength of Christ. Not passivity, not control, but faithful everyday leadership. We'll explore what it means to lead as a prophet, priest, and king in the home, and what that looks like in real life, not just in theory. And joining us for this conversation is author and theologian Dr. Joel Beeke. For men who feel the weight of responsibility or the sting of failure, this episode is about clarity, conviction, and hope. Let's get into it. Intro A big thanks to our official sponsor, Trivan, for making this conversation possible. Be sure to check them out at trivan.com. The world's changing fast, but what questions should we really be asking? You're listening to Real Talk, a podcast presented by Reformed Perspective, where we take God's word and apply it to the nitty gritty of life. Buckle up for real questions, real answers, and real direction. This is Real Talk. Lucas Holtvluwer Well, Dr. Beeke, thank you for joining us here at Real Talk. It's a real pleasure to have you. Dr. Joel Beeke Great to be with you, Lucas. Lucas Holtvluwer Excited to talk about leadership in the home and how to lead your family well. Of course, you've written a book, many books, I'm sure, on this topic broadly, and specifically this small one we have here today in the studio, which is a great little bite-sized taste of information and scriptural wisdom that, yeah, I enjoyed reading it myself, and I enjoyed reading it for preparation for this podcast, and I would encourage our listeners to go check it out, but we'll talk through it today. There's many kind of angles we could take with an episode like this. It's a big topic, how to lead your family well, and one you've been speaking about and writing about and talking about for many years, but I think we'll just start off at the top here. The biggest issue that I, at least, see like in my own life and amongst my peers and younger men in the church, and perhaps older men who are listening to this can relate as well, is kind of a confusion about what does it mean to be a good man, and what does it mean to lead your family well, and to do this in a way that honors and glorifies God, in a way that balances out yet, not being too heavy-handed on the one hand, of course, but not being too laid back, and abdicating your duties on the other side, and there's a real temptation, I would say, in both directions, in today's culture, but broadly speaking, the biggest push from my standpoint seems to be that we're not clear on what it means to do this well and do this in a way that is in line with the biblical standard that's laid out in scripture. So, off the top, big question, what does it mean to do this well, to lead your family well? Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah, big question indeed. And sometimes, our, you know, there's an old Dutch saying that's on plaques sometimes that says your talk talks and your walk talks, but your walk talks more than your talk talks. Lucas Holtvluwer Can you say it in Dutch? Dr. Joel Beeke No, not quite. I only read theological Dutch, and not every day. But I think the point that sign makes is a very important point. One of the best things we can do is to shadow a father who's really doing it right and well, and observing, and if that's our own dad, praise be to us. I mean, praise be to God. But, we're the beneficiaries, and so my own father did a lot of things right, and I learned a lot from him, but basically over the years I came to be convicted that to get our arms around this issue and to give men a framework to work within this issue that we need to use the prophet, priest, king paradigm because we're really ultimately as fathers to be image bearers of Christ in our homes and in our leadership, and the way to do that is to image Christ, of course, and to image Christ, He leads us, and He meets all our needs, if we're true believers, by His prophetical priestly and kingly office, which are all one in Him. So as fathers we are to be small p, small k imitators of Christ in our families as prophets, priests, and kings. So, what that means is you go to things for your prophetical office, like Deuteronomy 6:4-9, where we're told to teach our children diligently all the truths of the word of God, the whole counsel of God. So we're to be real teachers. Prophets are not just predictors of the future, that was actually a side issue, but they were the mouthpiece of God. Lucas Holtvluwer Instruction. Dr. Joel Beeke Yes, yeah, and so, but they were to do it passionately. They weren't to get more excited about a score of a ball, putting this contemporary, score of a ball game, than they were about Jesus Christ, so in the home the father must be full of passion, diligently teaching his children, maybe that means sometimes weeping, but it with the sobriety of what he has to teach, and the awesomeness of what he has to teach, and the magnitude of what he has to teach. This is huge. We're to teach, Moses says in Deuteronomy 6, when we lie down, when we rise up, when we go to bed, etc. All those expressions are just a Hebrew idiom to say we need to teach every day. Lucas Holtvluwer All the time. Dr. Joel Beeke Yes, yeah. And, of course, our very walk is a teaching. I always say this to dads: your very life is the second most important book your children will ever read. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, that's true. Dr. Joel Beeke Next to the Bible. So that's one, but then we're also to be priests to our, our children by showing our, our sacrificial personality. We have to model not meritorious sacrifice like Christ did, but a gratuitous sacrifice that we lay down our lives for our wife and our children out of thankfulness, and as an image bearer of Christ laying down his life for us, but also, and this is huge, and I hope we talk about it later, we're to be prayer leaders in our family, prayer warriors in our family, and our children are to see us pray often, to hear us pray often, and we're to pray for them often also in their absence, as well as with them, this is a big part of our calling to be interceders, and for that I like to take people to Job 1:1-5, where his children are in the house having a good time together. We don't read that they're sinning, but he said it may be, it may be that in their heart they're sinning against God. So I'm going to be offering sacrifices every day and praying. Now we don't have to offer any bulls or turtle doves or anything today, because we go straight to the blood of Christ. So we go straight to God in prayer, and as Spurgeon said – so beautiful, I love the statement of Spurgeon – Job did it early in the morning, so Spurgeon said he hurried to the cross first thing every morning with his kids. Yeah, you know what a beautiful picture of a God-fearing father. And the text ends verse 5: “Thus did Job continually.” So it wasn't a hit or miss, it was a consistent day by day storming the mercy seat for his kids, and of course the mother needs to do that too, but as a leader of the home, the man needs to really marinate all his leadership in this, this prayerful ethos and pathos and demeanor, and so kids should be able to say of their dads, “well, my dad's not perfect, he's got his faults and flaws like everyone else, but he prays for my soul, he cares about my soul.” Because, as J.C. Ryle said, “soul love is the soul of all love”, and that's what my dad did so well. I don't think he could care less about my body out, quite honestly. My mother took care of those needs, but boy, did he love my soul. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah. Dr. Joel Beeke And it came across in his prayers, came across in his prophetical teaching. And then there's the third thing, which is kingship, and that's a very broad concept, but kingship, I think, means in a nutshell to defend your children from enemies, soul enemies, defend them from excessive use of social media, defend them from unwise romantic relationships, defend them from bullies, defend them from bad teaching – don't let them go to a school where they get inculcated with anti-biblical material. And then protection and guidance. The wise, kingly father gives a lot of guidance to each child, and that's one of our greatest weaknesses as fathers, I think, today, including my own. And, oh, thank God for family worship, which helps a lot in this area, but just also sitting down with your kids at times where there's non-family worship times, and just talking with them, and getting inside their mind, and giving them guidance in a fatherly way, like the wise men in the book of Proverbs, you know. Lucas Holtvluwer Okay. Dr. Joel Beeke Or, like, you know, come unto me, my son, and I'll give you understanding, yeah. And giving you understanding, I'll give you wisdom, Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah. Hear my instruction. Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah. And you can feel the affection of that, you know, from the time the child is three years old on your lap, and you're, you're encircling your arms, maybe you got two kids that are young, you're encircling your arms around them both, and they're both looking at you, and you're just talking to them calmly, teaching them already at three years old about who God is, and how to hate sin, and you're giving them guidance how to share each other's toys, and you know, and the fruits of the spirit in Galatians 5:22-23, you're modeling that for them, but you're, you're also talking to them about it from a very young age. Like Luther said, "Give me a child until he's seven, you can have him for the rest of his life. I've already formed him. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah. Dr. Joel Beeke Or the guy who Napoleon Bonaparte said, I think it was Napoleon Bonaparte, said, "If you start training a child at five, you're too late. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, it's amazing what they can pick up. Dr. Joel Beeke Yes it is! And I was just two weeks ago, I was just with my whole family in the swimming pool in Florida vacation, and I'm talking. It, by the way, that's a great time to talk to kids, because you're, you're just treading water in the pool, and, and, and you know, you just talk. So, I try to corner each one, or corner him is the wrong word, it wasn't anything forceful or heavy, but I just start chatting with them, and I'm talking to my, this four year old grandchild, one of the 13 grandchildren, and I said, “So what do you, what do you think? Do you think you hate sin, and you love God?” And she said, “I think I have some love for God, but not as much love as I should have.” “Okay, you hate sin.” “Well, I do sometimes, but I love my toys too much, and I just.. I enjoy life so much,” she says, “I'm afraid I'm.. I'm not ready to meet God.” “Oh, do you.. do you think you will be ready to meet God when one day in the future?” And she said, "Yep, I think so. I think on the day of judgment I'll be ready to meet God.” I said, "Oh, on the day of judgment, but when do you need to start seeking God?” And she snapped her head around, she looks at me, and she goes, "Right now, Grandpa!” And I said “Yes, amen, you got it.” I think that's the model, prophet, priest, king, Lucas Holtvluwer Got it. Okay, that's that's very clear, so I appreciate you laying that out. It's definitely daunting as well, in terms of like what you need to be as a man, to be able to live up to those callings, right? I mean, we know we're not gonna live up to it perfectly, but it's there's a lot there to build on and work on, like if I think of the typical, like if we think of the cultural vestiges that are left around from a more Christian time, like the whole protect and provide side of things, like that's still like in our, in my psyche as a young man, for sure, right, and like growing up in the church as well, but then that whole provision element also being not just you go to work and make sure your family's got enough money to put food on the table, kind of thing, like you got to be providing for them the soul care side of things too. Dr. Joel Beeke That's correct, and I should have said that under the under the King-ly office also provide is another important thing. I just kind of take that for granted. I think all fathers know that they need to provide for their family, but the thing we really have to fight against today, and I think I think we're making inroads, but is that that's just the beginning. Lucas Holtvluwer Totally, that's the basis. Dr. Joel Beeke That’s just the beginning. At the same time, we don't want to fall in the trap, Lucas, of the father has to do everything and burden him overly much, so that he comes home from work is very tired. Well, you're not allowed to take a 10 minute map, because you got to be, you got to be watching the kids now. This is nonsense, you know, he's going to be much better father if he takes a 10 minute nap, at least most men are, and then has the energy to go, but his wife, even though she's been working all day as well, but she should not think, well, now he's going to be working hard from 6pm to 11pm being with the kids for five straight hours, and doing dishes and all kinds of things. I mean, he can do dishes, that's fine. And I always, our family, I wash the dishes until the kids got married. My wife said, 'Now you don't need to anymore.” But you know, you find your own way in some of these things. Lucas Holtvluwer Yes, you do. Dr. Joel Beeke We're in a day now where some fathers are just henpecked by their wives, and man, they're working all day hard, and they come home, they work all day till 11 o'clock, and their wife says, "Well I worked all day so you need to work all day, but men needed little time as a break on their own, as well as do wives. So, there needs to be kind of a sharing of the workload, but let's not go to the other extreme and say men have got to just be working all the time with their kids. Lucas Holtvluwer No, yeah, and that's more of a result of a lot of people, like with women working much more nowadays, right. There's that natural pressure there, of like, well, they're literally at work all day. If your kids are in daycare or something like that, right and that's, you can, you can see how people go down that road, but if they don't have clarity about what the vision is of Prophet Priest and King, what it means to do that. Well, that's, I think, that's where people can get confused, right. So, I appreciate you kind of laying that out, my one question, hearing you say that, was like, how did this build for you over time? If you think back to your time as a younger father, throughout different, you know, teen years and whatnot, like, I have a two year old and a three year old daughter, so I'm at the beginning stages of this, but now you're in the grandparent stage, like you say, with you said 13 grandkids there, that's a wonderful blessing. So, how did that kind of develop over time for yourself, making some of these habits, maybe to get practical? Like being a prayer warrior, like that's not something that comes naturally for me, at least as a young guy. Dr. Joel Beeke So, I would evaluate myself with different grades on different as I look back on different aspects of fatherhood. The overwhelming daunting problem I had is that the denomination I was in when I became a minister had five ministers for 10,000 members, so when I was 25 years old, I was ordained in Sioux Center, Iowa, and I had 2000 members in my charge. Well, I had 15 weddings a year, about 20 funerals a year, all these sacraments, I had to see every person in the hospital. I had to prepare two new sermons every week for Sunday. It was overwhelming, but right from the get-go until to now, until now, at 73, I've got the mode of working long hours, but my wife is – this is something I want to say too, very important – every woman is different, and so some wives can handle a man who works longer hours much better than others, and my wife happens to be one of those. So, I say to my theological students, don't follow my example, don't work as many hours as I worked, but know your wife, know the needs of your kids, and do the very best you can, and so some of those years when our kids were very small, I was also the only minister in a new denomination, and in nine churches, so that was very, very hard, very hard, but I was caught between a rock and a hard place, but then when we got more ministers as a seminary picked up, Puritan Reformed Seminary, and we could fill the pulpits, I was able to spend a bit more time with my kids, but when I look back in my life, I wish I'd spent more time with them, but what did happen was I tried to, after supper every night, we, without fail, we would have family worship. If I didn't do family worship, my kids would say, "What's wrong with you, Dad? Are you sick?” And then many nights, not every night, some nights we had to go away, right then, but many nights, I would, I would play with them for about an hour or something, do things with them, and then I would go back to the study. So, I'm not a very good example in some ways with the time factor, but you know, I did do probably more with my son than my daughters, and I did go golfing with my son, and hunting, and things like fishing a little bit, but I could have done more there too. So, in some ways, I think you always feel guilty that you'd never spend enough time with your kids. With my wife, it was different, because we're both really late night people, so after all the kids are in bed, we’d jump in the hot tub and chat for an hour. We go for still till today we go for a long walk around 11:30 at night. Lucas Holtvluwer Really? Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah! Lucas Holtvluwer I'm sleeping then. Yeah, that's crazy. Dr. Joel Beeke Then we go to bed about usually it's between 12:30 and 1:00. So I, you know, have that time with her, but and I do think I do think that where I did do better at was being aware of my kids' needs, asking my wife every day, what's up, you know anything about? Okay, Esther has a test tomorrow, Calvin is getting sick, going right away to Calvin, praying with him, talking with him, praying for Esther and Calvin in the family prayer after supper, talking with the kids. I did better, I did better at that, but I think my greatest downfall was not enough time. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, that is tricky. Okay, so if we think about that, I'm just trying to think about, yeah, practical ways that, like, guys can improve and kind of get up to that standard of leadership, right? Dr. Joel Beeke Yes, and one thing that we did do, we tried to develop different things, what, like, the Puritans called holy habits, where we would have certain customs that we would follow, tried, tried to do quite, quite a few of those, one of them, of course, being in family worship. For example, on Sunday morning I would teach the children that today regularly is a very, very special day. God is coming to speak to us today. I would wake them up every Sunday morning. I don't know if they appreciated it at the time, but I hope they do now. I would knock on the door and say, “Time to get up. We get to worship God today, and God is going to speak to us today. Let's get up out of bed. This is an exciting day.” And you know, my prayer would be longer at breakfast, and with excitement that we're going up to the house of God, and that type of thing, and so you develop, yeah, with the Puritans called holy habits. Maybe we'll talk more about some of them later. Lucas Holtvluwer Yep, yep, yep. No, that's important. It's important to have some tangible things that we can all work on that way. I guess you kind of mentioned this earlier about this, the reaction to cultural egalitarianism, but I guess, and we kind of sketched it out with a prophet, priest, and king thing, in terms of what that looks like to do that well, and to not be on one side of the ditch or the other side too far. Do you want to say anything more to that, or you want to keep moving on? We can keep going. Dr. Joel Beeke Well yeah, you can go to either extreme can’t you? You can go to a point where you're the head of the household, and you exercise it by authoritarianism. You do what I say, or else, and lay down the law, and you come across hard and crass and crude and rude, and you alienate your kids. You may, you may beat them, you may beat brow them into obedience, but as soon as they grow up and they're out of your sight, they're going to sow their wild oats, because they're not close to you. And then there's the other extreme where you know you're wimpy and the kids set the agenda and you follow them, you're constantly giving in to them, and they rule the household. Same result, when they get older, they're going to sow their wild oats, because they haven't had good leadership. But if you maintain that right balance, and I think the right balance, and this is where I think all my kids knew all the all the upbringing. Dad and Mom both loved them like crazy, and, and that's why we care. That's why we teach you. That's why we pray for you. That's why we defend you. That was big in our whole household. Lots of verbal affirmations. I love you. Lots of hugs of mom and the kids, yeah. And you know that gives children a sense of security, so it's love, love, love that's got to pervade every single one of those offices. And that's what Jesus said in Ephesians 5, didn't he? You've got to love your wife, like I love my people. Well, he died for them. He shed blood for them. So it's a sacrificial love, but it's also a sweet love. It's a genuine love, and love covers a multitude of evils, and so that's key, if you don't show your kids that you love them, you don't tell them, and your wife as well regularly, you will fail as a father. Lucas Holtvluwer That kind of, it's interesting you say that about the regular affirmations, and then the verbal, like, "Hey, I love you, I care about you, I'm here for you, you need to talk” all that kind of stuff, which is all good, and I agree with that, but I think there's a kind of a gentle parenting movement as well, of course, nowadays too, and that tends to go kind of in that direction as well. So, maybe, do you want to just speak on a little bit, like when you say love, and you kind of just do this a little bit, but I just want to touch on it more. It's not the easy love, right? It's like it's usually the thing that takes more work to do. Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah, but the gentle parenting movement, as far as I see it, is more like you're affirming your kids for everything, you're telling them when they did something very poorly that they did it well. You know, that's not being honest with them. Lucas Holtvluwer That's lying to them. Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah, so gentle parenting is, is, is really a lack of leadership. It's putting the kids in the driver's seat, I think. Whereas genuine love is, is ruling all three of these offices, means that the three offices still function – you're still teaching, you're still praying, you're still sacrificing, you're still defending, protecting, guiding – so you're still, you're still in the driver's seat, you're still the head of the home, you're still leading the family, but you're doing it in love. So, even when you discipline your kids, you know, I, you know, Ted Tripps' book, A Shepherd in a Child's Heart. I read that when our oldest was two years old, and I went to Mary, and said, “Oh, wow, I'm not disappointing my kids, right? And neither are you. We need to follow this model.” So I did. So from then on, and I would take a child, say it's my son, I would take him into a separate room, I would administer the discipline, not with it to save him from shame, not to not to do in front of the other kids. First of all, I talked to him about his sin and show him why it's wrong. He has to repent, and after he repented, I would say, “Well, I still need.. I need.. if it was a fairly serious sentence, I need to spank you twice, and lay him across my lap, and if I need, of course, spank him only on the rear end, which I think is the only place on the human anatomy that God is designed to sustain spankings, and if it wasn't quite as serious, I'd say I'm going to just spank you once, and I would do it, and I would do it firmly for him, because he didn't feel much like compared to the girls, and then I would scoop him up in my arms, and then I would pray, pray with him, and then I would tell him I love him, and I would tell him, this sin is now buried, you've repented, and yeah, and one time, one time, he was like maybe four, and we've been doing this for a couple years, and we walked out of the room, and we always walked out the room holding hands. I figured that was a really good affirmation for him, also, that the matter is buried, never brought up again, never to be brought up again. Just like God, when He forgives us, He doesn't resurface it. Yep, Spurgeon said, “when you bury a dead dog, you don't leave its tail sticking up out of the ground and revisit it.” Done. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah. Dr. Joel Beeke Okay. So I told kids that, you know, you're forgiven completely. We're never talking about this again, but don't do the sin again. Hold hands as we walk out, and we're walking out, and my son looks up at me and goes, "Dad, how come you never sin?” Whoa, okay. Back into the, we called it the sun room, because the sun shined in a lot of the windows. Back into the sun room, I sat him down. I said, “Son, I'm just as big a sinner as you. I need Jesus Christ just as much as you do to be my Savior and my Lord. So, don't ever think your dad doesn't sin, but we're in this together. We want to walk in God's ways. I want to, you want to, we want to live by the Bible, okay, son. Pray for me that I don't sin. I'll pray for you that you don't sin.” Lucas Holtvluwer Well, that's awesome. That's so cool. That's okay. Just to go back to this, the I'm interested in the order of operations. Or do you give your kids like a couple minutes to slow down and like kind of cool off before you come and talk to them? Like, would you put them in the sunroom, and then, because it usually they're like crying or something, because they did, it's kind of a mess. Dr. Joel Beeke I think Ted Tripps' book is a good paradigm, but one of the tricky things about parenting is, I have this theory, it's, it's not written in the Bible inspired, but I still think it's true. It’s this: I think God made every one of our children so astonishingly different from each other that He wants us to be dependent on His grace for wisdom to rear each one, and so often what works with one doesn't work with another. I had a daughter that if I spanked her this hard, she would weep and wail uncontrollably, and I mean, and not stop. Very, very, very tender. But if you left that daughter in a bedroom all by herself for five minutes, she would feel the pain of what she had done, and she wouldn't feel the rebellion from that she felt when she was even lightly spanked. So I only spanked her once or twice in her life, when she did something wrong with a sibling that I had to give them somewhat equal treatment here, and but for the rest, oh, it was much more effective to put her in a separate room. So I don't think whether there were.. there were two families. I'll tell you this quick story: two families had 10 kids each, and I'm.. I don't want to give any details in case people guess who they are, but the one father whose family was a total mess came to the other father, whose family was amazing, and said, “What do you do? I treat all my kids alike.” And the other father said, “That's probably your problem.” Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah. Dr. Joel Beeke You know, I mean, there's a certain equality you need to maintain, like you can't give one kid a $3 allowance per week and give the other one a $1 you know, in the same age range, you've got certain areas of equality, and you can't play favoritism, but boy, oh boy, you better not raise all your kids alike, because then you're not accounting for their, the originality of their personalities. Lucas Holtvluwer Yep, that makes sense. In order to lead your family well, what is required of the man in terms of personal holiness? Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah, this is a huge question. Thank you for it. First of all, you've got to be saved. You’ve got to have a big heart for the Lord. You've got to want to rear your children according to the Bible, and you want to ransack the Bible, for tips for fatherhood. In fact, I would put it this way, that the Bible is still the best parental textbook on the market. Look at all the wisdom, explicit, implicit, given in the book of Proverbs alone. So, gotta have a heart right with God. You have to be born again, want to love Christ. Second, you got to guide your children by the Bible. Thirdly, you've got to understand that there's a sense in which these children are your children, and there's a sense in which they're God's children by the external covenant. They're included in that covenant, and what God is really doing is He's opening the womb of your wife and giving you children as a father to loan those children to you, and you're to bring them up, Ephesians 6:4, in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and as it were, return them to the Lord in your prayers and in your upbringing, and dedicate them back to the Lord, in a sense like Hannah did, although not have them leave your home, so the net result of that is that you on the day of judgment want to be able to say to God, “Lord, I had many shortcomings and I need, I need them forgiven, and please forgive me for all my shortcomings, but by the grace of God, I did try to govern my family and lead my children according to your will”, so that when I'm in situations, and I would tell my own kids this too, I say “I must discipline you because God is commanding me to discipline you as head of the home, and I need to obey God. This is no fun for me to discipline you.” But I'm to raise children for the Lord. That means we need to follow the Bible, and we need to follow biblical principles. So I think we've got to get away from this business of I'm going to do what I feel like doing because I'm the head of the home. No, no, no, you got to do what God wants you to do because you're the head of the home so you need to, you need to sit still and say what does God want me to do, and if you're angry because your children have been disobedient and you're ready to discipline them, I learned the hard way that it's not the right time to discipline them because you're angry. Lucas Holtvluwer Yes. Dr. Joel Beeke So what I say to them at that point is, I say, “Well, you've, you've committed a sin.” I try to keep my voice calm, sometimes a bit earnest, but never yelling, never yelling, and never angry, but I would say, “You've committed a sin, and your daddy is going to think about how to discipline you, and I'll come back to you soon.” But then what I don't tell them is I'm feeling angry inside, and I'm not ready to discipline you right now, and I walk away. Sometimes you only have to count to 10, and you regain yourself, so to speak. Other times you say, “I need a few more minutes. I really got to settle on a position here, exactly what I'm going to do.” Sometimes I even need to drop down to my knees and just say, “Lord, give me light and wisdom to know what to do,” and then when I feel more ready and more in self control, I go back and do the discipline. Lucas Holtvluwer Okay Dr. Joel Beeke When you discipline in anger, it will always come back to bite you. Just like when you get angry at anybody. I've had two times in 48 years of ministry where people were so angry with me, it was unbelievable, but I made the mistake of getting angry back, and I've lived to regret those times for decades, and but it's the same with children, you know, every time you lose control and get angry, you will deeply regret it afterward. Yeah, and your conscience won't be satisfied if you say, "Oh, well, they deserved it.” Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, you should have seen what they said. Yeah, no, no, doesn't matter. No, no. Dr. Joel Beeke No, no. So that helped me a lot, and I thank God I did learn that when the kids were very early. So, I. I don't think my kids ever heard me yell at them, ever. Lucas Holtvluwer No, no. So, that makes sense on the anger front. What about when, if we talk about personal holiness and you have these - you mentioned these habits of holiness earlier, and you talked about one of them. Did those habits of holiness help sustain you through some of those seasons of life? And maybe you don't have this, because if you're a pastor, you're in the Word every day, it's not as, as like this, but I find you go through seasons where it's more dry. Yes, you're still a Christian, but your faith is not as alive, but you still are called to leave, lead your family, right? Like, how did you kind of get through some of those seasons? Dr. Joel Beeke Oh, okay, yeah, that's an outstanding question. Yeah, well, of course, every believer has times where, if he's not careful, if he doesn't develop holy habits. In fact, the lack of developing holy habits is what usually generates lukewarmness and eventually backsliding, and it usually begins in the secret closet of prayer, where your prayers become colder, more distant, more formal, more brief, more without a heart, and that just slips away bit by bit, and Satan doesn't usually grab us and take us 10 feet away in one shot, but he inch by inch by inch he just works away at our vibrant godliness until it seems to dissipate and float away. So, yeah, so what are those, some of those holy habits? Well, one thing is praying with children on their knees, in addition to family worship, and I hope we talk about family worship later, because that's the biggest holy habit. Lucas Holtvluwer We'll get into. Dr. Joel Beeke But when kids go to bed, is a wonderful time to pray with them, and just to lay by them, and talk, have real talk. Dinner conversation, my wife is really big on this one, have real talk at dinner time. She actually has a talk called conversations at dinner time and if I came home from work, and I'd be sitting there, and I wasn't focusing on real talk. My wife is very gentle. I would feel this little gentle tap, tap of her foot on my leg underneath the table, oh yeah, and I know what you're saying. She's saying, "Join us, you're still thinking about your sermon”, you know, and that type of thing, so that. That's a really good thing, so that happy time around the dinner table is a really good time to talk about things about the Lord, just real things at school, and then a big thing for me, and I know a lot of men don't do this, but a big thing for me, which we establish from the get go in our marriage is that at night when we go to bed we get down on our knees, hold hands, and one night she prays and one night I pray, and it's not just a short little good night prayer, we pour out our heart for what happened that day, and pray that God will bless our feeble efforts of family worship that day, and I love to hear my wife pray. I love the feminine side of prayer, hearing that and the tenderness of it all, and I think she appreciates my leadership in prayer, and so that's a very sweet time, and that's like recharges your batteries, so that the next morning you're ready to go again. We don't do, we don't do it as well in the first right when we get up, because, like I said, we're late night people. Hi, I read about all these Puritans getting up at 4 o'clock in the morning and going to work and having two hours of prayer. I just, that's just not me, but I get a second wind in the evening, so I'm much better in my devotions in the evening, so, so that, that's a holy habit for us that I think is very important. But we also developed other holy habits and faith in our family that are just, you know, just automatic, like before you go on a trip, a vacation, all go down underneath in the living room, pray for safety and guidance, and so on. And then we van is all packed, and then we get in the van and drive away. As soon as we come home, we all go back into the living room want to acknowledge the Lord, we're safe, all get down on our knees again and pray, and then we unpack the car and stuff. So just that type of, I want to build in the consciousness of our children and my own, that every moment God is protecting us like an eyelash is protecting an eye 1000 times a day. And that's what Psalm 121 is all about. He shall preserve thee, and thy going out, thy coming in. He shall preserve thy soul. He shall preserve thee from all evil. The Hebrew word there, preserve, has a root meaning of the eyelet, protecting the eye, Lucas Holtvluwer Really? Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah, over and over and over and over again. And that's what God does for us so you want to acknowledge that. Lucas Holtvluwer Beautiful, yeah, it's small, small but powerful habits like that. Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah. Lucas Holtvluwer And you would literally all get like physically on your knees together as a family. Wow, okay, that's quite something. That's beautiful. All right, okay. Why don't we delve a little deeper into Prophet, Priest, and King, and then I think we're going to come through some of this family worship stuff from there too, so on the prophet end of things, is biblical leadership primarily about the teaching rather than the authority? Like, where does the authority play into, like, does, like, the husband have to teach, or can, like, the wife teach, and, like, how did that kind of work out in your home, and where have you seen that modeled well? Dr. Joel Beeke I think the biblical model is not that the man has to do all the teaching and all the praying, but the biblical model is that the man is the leader. So, in family worship, for example, I would lead the family worship, I would do the opening prayer. My habit was to then divide the reading of the chapter into so four parts, first the prayer, and then the reading of scripture. Let's say we're going to read 20 verses. We used to read about 20 verses in the Old Testament. It was the New Testament, we used to read about 15, maybe 10, because it's more packed full of essence of doctrine, and that would just divide it, but as soon as they could all read, I'd say, you know, every one of us just reads four verses, and they know we're going to talk about it, they know I'm going to ask them questions, so having them participate makes them makes them feel very involved, and then I lead the conversation. Of course now we have the Family Worship Bible Guide, which we worked on for five years, so we use that. Now we're empty nesters. My wife and I still use that. And we still do it just like we did, as if the kids are there but we just do it with the two of. And then when it comes to the question at the end of that little section of one of the major takeaways of the chapter in Family Worship Bible Guide, maybe my wife would jump in if nobody answers right away, or one of the kids would jump in, but she's there to assist me, and she has a whole talk, actually, for women on how to assist your husband and family worship. And so it becomes a co-labor thing, but she allows the leadership be to me, so, and that's the wisdom of God in the scriptures that He's given not in terms of hierarchy, but in terms of function, two different roles for man and woman to play in marriage. You can't have two heads in the family, you need a leader, but, but particularly when the woman is theologically astute, and can maybe she's more astute than the husband. Lucas Holtvluwer I was gonna ask you that. Dr. Joel Beeke But she must still give him the leadership reins, and she must be wise in not dominating him, but she can jump in and offer answers or offer important questions to ask the children, and as long as he doesn't feel threatened, that can only strengthen his ability to do family worship. So, and then what happened with us was we wouldn't do long family worships, maybe the maybe the instruction part, instructing on that chapter would last from 5 to 12 minutes. There were the times when you know we got really talking on something, and we kept going, but as a rule, and then we would have a closing prayer, and I would do the same thing. I would, I would take turns with my wife and each of my three kids to do what they called the daddy's closing prayer, and it happened by accident, actually, or maybe I should say by providence, there's no such thing as accident. So, my three year old sitting in my, my lap, my son, my daughter was one year old, sitting on the other knee, and I'm going to ask my wife to close in prayer, which was normal at that time. My son looks up at me and goes, “Daddy, can I do the daddy's prayer?” I'm thinking three years old. Yes. So I said, “Daddy will whisper some words in your ear, and then you say them, and I'll whisper some more, and you say them.” So we did that for a whole year, when it was his turn to pray, and he felt very important when he was doing the daddy's prayer. When it was four, his fourth birthday, I said, "Okay, now you start to pray. And remember what Daddy taught you: A C T S, Acts formula, is the way we pray. You adore God, you confess your sins, you thank Him, and you supplicate, you spread out your needs.” Now he mixed up the order, that's okay, but pretty much got those four things, at least a little bit, and of course it's not always theologically as sound as you want, and as sound as you want. He's four, so you let him go. But I said then when you run stuck, you just kind of poke your elbow in my stomach, just give me a little poke and I'll help you again. So we did that from four to seven, three years, and then at seven I said, “Son, it's all yours now, you pray the whole prayer”, and what was beautiful, Lucas was, and I didn't even anticipate that, but by that preparation, I mean the Holy Spirit alone can teach them to truly pray, but by preparing them this way, even outwardly, when their peers would come over, when guests would come over, when unbelievers would come over. By the way, that's a great time to evangelize people in your family. Is have them come over for something, and then just bring them into the living room, where you have all your books set up, and have them participate in family worship. So, anyway, then what would happen is he would pray in front of the whole group of people at seven years old, no problem, he's been used to it. Lucas Holtvluwer Yep. Dr. Joel Beeke So then I did my, I did our daughters the same way, because I realized this was working, so I did the daughters the same way, and one daughter responded a little better to it than the other, when one was a little more shy than the other, so it took a tad bit longer, but I think that's very important to involve them, and then we would sing, which is the fourth part of family worship. Psalm 118:15, “I hear the songs of rejoicing in the tents of the righteous”, and our one daughter got to play the organ, and our son got to play the cello and they would get out their instruments, and we would have just a wonderful time singing. I loved it. We get, we get, we'd sit right around our daughter, that was more shy, she really poured out her heart in playing the, in the organ, and, and, oh, could she play that thing, or no, it was a piano, piano, she could play it so well, and put all her expression into it, and we would just sit around her and sing it is well, with my soul, there's things like that, it was, I missed her so much when she got married, just for that alone. So, family worship is meant to be an enjoyable time. It's a serious time. You don't let.. you don't let the phone.. you don't answer the phone, you just let it ring. You’re in the audience of God. This is the most sacred time of your day. This is your primary responsibility, Father. To bring your children into the Word of God every day. Lucas Holtvluwer So you would go into a separate room to do that, not at the dinner table. Dr. Joel Beeke Absolutely. Lucas Holtvluwer Okay. And you feel like that was an important distinction. Dr. Joel Beeke Yes, because at the dinner table, where are your books? Where's your salt book? Where's your Bible? You know, so you have it all set up on a regular basis. It's a holy habit, everyone goes to the same seat every time, everyone's got their particular books, it's all ready to go, and then you come back in and you clean off the table and do the dishes. Lucas Holtvluwer Yep, yep, love it. Okay, so I just want to zero in on that, that point of potential point of tension with a wife who's more educated or potentially more gifted in explaining theological matters that would typically be associated with the head of the household, the male, right, the husband, so that balance there that you mentioned your wife as a talk about as well. I think you used an interesting phrase of like, if the husband isn't threatened by it, right? So, is it, is it just predicated on that, or like, where does that responsibility lie with the husband? Because there should be probably some real conversation there. If you know your wife is gifted in that area, you are not as eloquent, perhaps, or as well studied even. How do.. how have you advised people over the years to kind of handle that? Dr. Joel Beeke As a pastor, I've been around the block a few times, actually, just in a couple months from now, I started preaching 50 years ago. I can't believe it. Lucas Holtvluwer Wow. Dr. Joel Beeke But what I've learned from working with people over the years is that one size doesn't fit all in many of these things and people have different personalities, and a wise woman will be able to understand her husband well and know her boundaries, so that she doesn't take over the family worship completely, or also take over, or take over to such a degree that he would feel uncomfortable, like “I'm out of it”, whereas another man will say, hey, honey, I'm glad for any help you give me, and she can be freer. Doesn't mean that one is good or one is bad, it just means you need to develop a chemistry between the two of you. Lucas Holtvluwer Would you talk about that before, like you and your wife, about how you want to kind of proceed with this, or that just kind of developed over the years, or what did that look like for you guys? Dr. Joel Beeke I don’t even remember if we talked about it before, but we started. We started this extended family worship, instead of the typical traditional Dutch way of just praying before the meal and reading the Bible, and shutting the Bible, and then praying, and no singing, and no talking about the chapter. We started the more extensive form when my oldest was three years old, and I was asked to give a talk on family worship in South Africa. Lucas Holtvluwer Oh, wow. Dr. Joel Beeke And it changed my life. I read the Scottish Divines, I read the English Puritans, I read the Dutch, and I realized, wow, I thought all my life my dad was doing family worship, but.. and he did in many ways, on Sunday nights, he certainly did. It was a long family worship, about an hour, but on weekdays he did a partial family worship, but that was what the Dutch thought was family worship, at least in the 20th century. But I realized, no, no, no. After reading all these books on family worship that the Puritans wrote, this is only a little part of it. You've got to talk to your kids every day on the chapter, and so that's when we, we change. But my wife is just a natural, so she, she would just jump in the conversation. I'm not sure we ever talked about it, and I've never felt threatened by her at all by contributing. I just felt grateful, but of course I'm a minister, so maybe that's a difference. But I think 90% of Christian marriages, this is a non-issue, but I'm just saying that when a woman is very gifted theologically, she, she needs to understand her husband and continually defer to him on certain issues, even as she imparts her wisdom to the children. And he should learn to appreciate that very much. Lucas Holtvluwer Yes, she can give that much more help. Dr. Joel Beeke Absolutely Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Interesting. What just again, when we're on the topic, what is one way that your wife, like, assists you or really helps you that you appreciate? Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah, so let's say I'm trying to ask my middle child at 10 years old a certain question, and she's not quite getting it, and I framed it maybe a little bit above her level, or you know how you give kids a little bit of a clue to help them. My wife would jump in and say, “Well, what about this”, and say it in a little different way than I would say. Sometimes it would connect with her, and she'd come up with the answer. I'd be crazy to be.. I'd be crazy to be offended by that. She’s only helping the conversation along. Lucas Holtvluwer Yep, yep. Okay. No, that's interesting. Just figured I'd ask that, because it's not just guys who are listening to this too, but it's easy to get stuck on that as well. Okay. Yes, we talked about some healthy rhythms of family life and family worship there, so that obviously that involves active teaching of scripture in the time of family worship and that's different, that's an extension of the typical Dutch tradition, like you say. Yeah, that many of us are familiar with. Dr. Joel Beeke I need to say this. The Family Worship Bible Guy is written at a level of like 10 years old and up and so since then, since these four guys, mainly four guys, spent five years writing this, forefathers, and it's been our best-selling book, and it's transformed 10’s of 1000’s of families in the family worship – I encourage everyone to use it, and I've never heard one complaint. Well, I did hear one complaint on it, that the questions were too long, but no one else has said that, but it, that that book has been so blessed of God, but I had a lot of fathers come to me and say, can you do something similar for very young children. So now we're doing a nine volume family worship series from Genesis to Revelation. Four of them are in print, two more at the printer. We've got three to go, and we're working on the seventh volume right now. Lucas Holtvluwer Awesome. Dr. Joel Beeke Each volume has 90 family worships. So, there's first volume is called Beginning, which is 90 family worships from Genesis, and we do four things in each family worship on two pages, takes six to seven minutes to do, review two questions of reviewing yesterday's family worship, and you, and the answers are right there for the dad, and you just ask your kids, then read – here's the new portion of scripture to read, and two questions on the reading, and then reflect, and the reflection is something that relates to young children, ages four 3 or 4 to 11 or 12, and that they can identify with, and then there's three questions on that reflection, and the whole reflection relates to the text read. And then the last thing is request, so there's a prayer need that corresponds with what the Bible reading is, and the reflection, so you have review, read, reflect, request, and it's just each one is on two pages, takes 6 or 7 minutes, and this also is such a tremendous help the parents with smaller children. I find it very, very helpful. Lucas Holtvluwer I'm getting excited about you talking about, yeah. Dr. Joel Beeke There’s all kinds of people right now. I mean, I'm talking 1000’s of people who've gone through these, and, and they, and they say they, when I go to conferences, they come to me. When's the next one coming out? We went back and we started with Genesis, because we're caught up with you and upset. We're trying, Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Okay, let's get into priest, then, for a minute, just because I know we got to be respectful of your time here as well. So, you say in the book here, many men would willingly die for their wives. If you truly would die for her, you would also live for her. Can you explain what it means to love your wife like Christ loved the church, and how, in your doing that, how are you living for her in that so powerfully? Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah, well, I have this formula that I get from Ephesians 5, and let me, let me just walk this through, through in like three minutes. I think I think this is a very, very important question. It comes at the whole heart of being, being a husband and so I have four words that describe the man's role as a husband in Ephesians 5. So, first of all, husband’s love your wives, verse 25 even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it. Not 50% 100% So, first of all, you love your wife absolutely as Christ loved the church. I'm to love her best welfare, for 100%. I'm to protect her, I'm to teach her, I'm to pray for her, I'm to, I'm to be a prophet, priest, king for her, which I explain also in that little book. Number two, that he might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that he might present her to himself, to that is to Christ, a glorious church. Wow, I'm to love her purposefully. This is my purpose. This is the reason I should have married her in the first place, that I want to wash her with the water of the word and present her to Christ on the judgment day. And this, this means a lot to me personally. I want my wife on the judgment day to be able to say, “Lord Jesus, because I was married to this man, he washed me with the water of the word, and made me much holier than I ever would have been, by the Spirit's grace, if I hadn't been married to him.” So this is the purpose: you love your wife so that you might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, and then present her to Christ as a glorious church. Lucas Holtvluwer So can I interrupt there? That's, but ultimately still for the glory of God, not just for your satisfaction. Dr. Joel Beeke Oh, no, no, no, no, totally, totally for the glory of God. So you love her absolutely, you love her purposefully, and then, thirdly, you love her realistically. It goes on to say, not having spot or wrinkle. So, every wife, every person is a sinner. So, every wedding I do, by the way, I slip this in somewhere in the way, I look at the couple and I say, “you know who you're marrying today, you're marrying a sinner, you know that, and you're marrying a sinner.” And it's interesting, because conservative religious Dutch weddings, everybody takes that in stride, everybody realizes that, yeah. And note, there's no comment at all, but in some ways people burst out laughing, they don't even think of that, that you're marrying a sinner, but I purposely want to say it there too because if you expect perfection from someone, you put a burden too heavy on their shoulders. Yes, and the marriage will collapse inward, because the spouse will feel like I can never measure up, so you love your wife. This is the third word, realistically. She's the center, I’m the center. Yep, so what that means is your wife has some little awkward habits or things you don't like that aren't all that major. Hey, man, just look the other way. Doesn't mean anything. If there's sin involved, you need to learn that the method of constructive criticism, sandwiching your, your, your loving criticism between two slices of bread, two areas of compliments, just like Paul did in First Corinthians, where he complimented the Corinthians, then gave them seven levels of meat, dealing with seven criticisms, and the answer to all seven, by the way, was Christ. And then he gave them a top slice of bread by saying, you know, I want to come and meet you, give each other a holy kiss, and so on. And so that's the way to criticize, but that's only if there's sin involved. But you need to understand every single spouse is going to have weaknesses, and don't even bother to correct the small things. Fundamentally, what you see is what you get. Fundamentally, you don't change people's personalities. And you can nitpick and you can nag this can go both ways, be realistic. Okay, and then fourthly, you've got to love your wife also sacrificially, as you love your own body. So, if you get something in your eye, what do you do? You don't say, "Hey, eye, I'll deal with the pain tomorrow.” No, it's your body, you want it fixed now. Your wife is hurting, you drop everything, you give her attention now, you listen to her now. So that's how a man needs to love his wife. Those four words. Lucas Holtvluwer So this whole model of the man, obviously being Christ and caring for his wife like Christ cares for the church. I've seen a lighter critique, perhaps, of the book where it said the writer of the piece was saying perhaps this is a bit too high of a view of what a man can do, but what would your response to that would be like, is it, are you're not. Not saying that this is the only way that Christ could be shown to, to a wife, or to the family, right? But do you think it's of such importance that it's one of the primary ways? Dr. Joel Beeke Oh yeah, oh yeah, it is the primary way. Lucas Holtvluwer It's the, okay. Dr. Joel Beeke But of course, but we also have our spots and wrinkles as men, so we're never gonna, we're never gonna reach in this side of the grave, we're never going to reach the total ideal but the Bible always sets the duties before us in the ideal form. So, as Paul says, I count my not myself to have attained, but I strive after. So, please don't misunderstand me, in every relationship in life we always come short, but this is the goal, this is the model, this is what we, what we aim for. Lucas Holtvluwer And you would say it's the primary, because it's so active every single day. Dr. Joel Beeke Oh, yes, and because it's, it's, it's Ephesians 5 is the theological chapter on marriage, and it plumbs the depths of marriage like no other place in the whole Bible and so this is the primary goal. So I look at it this way: post fall, what was the greatest weakness of man naturally? The greatest weakness of a husband, naturally, is not to really love his wife, to be selfish. So that becomes the primary, just because it is the greatest weakness, and because it models what marriage is to be. So, husbands love your wife. What is the greatest weakness of a woman post fall? Submission, lack of I want my way, Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, it's just two sides of selfishness. Dr. Joel Beeke Right. Lucas Holtvluwer Okay, so you, you think that's the primary way, because the contrast is so strong against the backdrop of our sinful nature. Dr. Joel Beeke That's a good part of it. The other part is, this is realistic. This is the primary duties of marriage, just all by itself, not even regarding the post-fall emphasis, but the post-fall emphasis of our sinfulness just makes this all the more obvious, that my primary duty is to love, and as Ephesians five says of the woman, it's not just submission, it's reverence, respect, that's what that's what a man needs from a wife, right. Lucas Holtvluwer So, okay, so, but this would be primary, like above, like preaching at the word, or like, how do you kind of rank that in terms of like how people know Christ? I'm just trying to, I'm probably misunderstanding what you're saying. Dr. Joel Beeke Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you talked within the marriage relationship. Okay. Oh no, preaching of the word is always, always primary. Yeah, of course, that's God speaking to us directly, from the pulpit through His word. Lucas Holtvluwer But in a marital context, yes, it's primary means. Yeah, okay, that makes sense to me. Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah, that's yeah, the word is always primary. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, yeah. Okay. No, I just wanted to.. I saw that as a critique. I thought, oh, hey, I'll ask that question. All right, so talking about kingship, then how does Christ model authority that is strong but not domineering and servant-hearted but not passive? Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah, every step of the way. And when he talks about himself, this is exactly the balance, right? Come unto me, I'm meek and lowly and come unto me, all ye are weary and heavy laden. So he's very inviting, he's very coming, he's very tender. He comes low, he eats with sinners. At the same time insists on obedience, and he says, if you love me, keep my commandments. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah. Dr. Joel Beeke You know, walk in my ways, fear God. And so there's a balance in Christ that comes through every office, but also through the kingship office, where he, and this is a model for father as well. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah Dr. Joel Beeke Yeah, that kind of balance. Lucas Holtvluwer Okay, maybe just to end it on a nice positive note here, because we always like to do that too. If, if there's been a father listening to this, and they feel that they've come up short, which we all do, and they're, they're, they've learned a lot from this episode, from the wisdom that you shared, from scripture, of course. Do you have anything to offer them if they look back, especially if it's someone who's a bit older in their journey, and you know that maybe their kids have grown up now, and maybe they have the opportunity to be to be a good grandfather for the grandkids, or whatnot? What would you say to encourage them, and then what can they kind of do in their lives at that stage? Dr. Joel Beeke I would say the Lord restores the years that locusts have eaten, and whatever mistakes you've made, you can correct. I confess, I didn't spend enough time with my kids, I was young, all the pressures of such a widespread ministry, but I am trying to make up for that with my grandchildren, It’s one reason why I'm cutting back at my conferences, just to spend more time, probably the main reason, spend more time with the grandchildren, but also when we go to God and confess our shortcomings, it's amazing how God himself can take over with his grace and cover our shortcomings with the fullness of Christ and the grace of Christ so that when we see God working in our children as well as our grandchildren, we just say this is incredible grace. We're loaded with blessings. My wife and I often say that to each other. We're loaded with blessings. Our kids turned out better than we raised them. It's just, I mean, that's amazing grace. So I would say to fathers or grandfathers, don't give up, start right away, and go to godly men in the church who are more godly than you are, and ask them for help. All you need is one or two accountability partners, ask them to hold you accountable, if they're willing to be your accountability partner, help get, help get you going in family worship and that you can bring certain individual cases, maybe cases of discipline, and replay them in front of that wise, godly father, and say, “What did that, what do you think I should have done better, or what did I do wrong”, and get serious about your fatherhood, and, and remember, you don't learn to swim better by just looking at the water. Lucas Holtvluwer No. Dr. Joel Beeke You have to jump in, you have to start making motions with your arms and legs. They may, you may feel uncoordinated doing family worship the first time, but now you've got the resources you just have to get the books from rhb.org and or no, I'm sorry, in Canada it's Reformed Book Services. You get the resources and you, you start, and you ask God to help you, and before you know it, you'll be doing a pretty effective edifying family worship, and your sincerity will impact your kids, even if you don't have really great content, but you'll learn to have better content by using these resources, and God will help you. Lucas Holtvluwer Yeah, they'll see that you love God and that you love them Dr. Joel Beeke Absolutely. Absolutely. Persevere, don't give up, and don't skip a day. Okay, family worship. Soon as you skip a day, guess what? You'll skip another day, and the next week you'll skip two days, and then three. Don't do that. I don't care how tired you are. I don't care who you are. Every day, set time, holy habit. Just do the family worship, and you will be greatly blessed, and you will see impact on your children. I believe that will humble you. Lucas Holtvluwer Amen to that. Dr. Beeke, thank you for your time. This has been Real Talk, I would say, and yeah, you're welcome back anytime. Dr. Joel Beeke Thank you, my pleasure, and God's blessing on Real Talk. Lucas Holtvluwer Thank you, appreciate it. Outro Thanks for tuning in to Real Talk. If this episode inspired you, please share it with a friend, so you can continue this conversation in your own life. We encourage you to send us your feedback, or let us know who you would like to hear on the podcast. You can email us at [email protected]. This episode is produced by Tyler Vanderwoude, Lucas Holtvluwer, and Mariah Tamminga in partnership with Performed Perspective. Until next time, keep having Real Talk....

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