Being the Church

Real Talk: Work is worship

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Opening
What if we've misunderstood work? For many Christians, faith feels clear on Sunday, but disconnected from Monday to Saturday. Yet most of our lives aren't lived in a church service, but in the workplace. And work is not neutral; it's formative, and it shapes our character, our decisions, and who we're becoming. That's why mentorship in business and leadership matters so much. People don't just need ideas; they need examples of faithful, God-honoring work in practice. In this episode, we're joined by Mark Wanders and Ben Nobels from Six Days, a new organization committed to helping Christians connect and grow in all their labors. We're talking about recovering a right understanding of work, not just as a job or a paycheck, but a place of mission and obedience to God in the everyday. A big thanks to our official sponsor Trivan for making this conversation possible. Now on to the show.

Intro
The world's changing fast, but what questions should we really be asking? You're listening to Real Talk, a podcast presented by Reformed Perspective, where we take God's Word and apply it to the nitty-gritty of life. Buckle up for real questions, real answers, and real direction. This is Real Talk.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Mark and Ben, welcome to the show. Great to have you guys here.

Ben Nobels
Thank you. Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

LH
Yeah, it's an honor and a privilege, man. Appreciate you guys making the time. And yeah, so today we're talking about work, as you guys would have just heard in the intro for the listeners. And these two gentlemen are from an organization called Six Days, and we'll get into more about what Six Days is doing and whatnot later in the episode. But we wanted to really center this episode, excuse me, on this idea of work and what it means to do your job every day, and how to ensure that that's connected to what we experience on Sundays, of course, and making sure our faith is intertwined with our work. So we've done some episodes in this before in terms of talking about entrepreneurship. We had the gentleman from Eagle Builders down here, and we kind of heard their story, and that was great as well. But this I thought was a great chance to get someone who's younger in the business world, a fellow younger guy in business, and then a more experienced vet, not old, but experienced vet, Mark, to kind of speak to some of the challenges that we face as Christians, maybe even specifically as Reformed Christians in the marketplace, whether that's building business, working for a business, or in the public sector, wherever God's called you, right? So, yeah, maybe if you guys just want to start off the top. How did you two kind of link up in this endeavor? I know your backstory perhaps is longer, but talk to us a little bit about the hole you saw in the marketplace or the problem you perceived, and what you guys kind of thought about that.

BN
Okay, very. It is a long story I'll try to keep it... But yeah, so it goes back to actually the beginning of last year when I started my business, and through a mutual connection, somehow by God's grace, I ended up on a phone call with this fella, and it was like totally happenstance. There, we've never chat chatted before ever, right?I don't think we've ever even met. I might have seen you around, but I think that's the extent of it. And we ended up on a phone conversation, and I was walking around my… I remember so clearly. I was walking around my backyard talking to this Mark fella. I was like, I don't even know who he is, but I like his ideas. And we were just chatting about work and all these different ideas, and then I brought up this concept that I had been thinking of for eight years, called Six Days, and we kind of latched onto it, and we ended up talking about it for like an hour, and again, never met the guy. Anyway, so that's that was where it started, and the concept of Six Days, I was working and just starting out a business and trying to grow it and just trying to figure out what it means to be a Christian entrepreneur. And then a couple days later, he texts me and he says, "You've got a lot going on. Would having a mentor help?” And I was like, "Yep, that sounds amazing.” I didn't even know that. I had no idea what a mentor was or what it would look like. I just knew that I needed something because I felt like I was kind of flying blind, just trying to make things up as I went along. And obviously, ChatGPT was helping me along, but there's only so much that AI can do, and only so much trust you can have in it. Anyway, so we ended up meeting monthly at his shop, and we would we would sit down, and Mark would mentor me and walk me through not just the business aspect, but also the relational aspect, where like how I interact with my wife, how I interact with my children, what it means to be a father while you're providing for your family. There are some really big lessons in there that have totally shaped the way that I have approached entrepreneurship and running a business, and also how that interacts with the rest of my life, and all from all from a very Bible centric perspective, and it's been such a blessing.

LH
Awesome. So you guys connect kind of right away off this first phone call. You kind of form this mentorship mentee, mentor mentee relationship there, but specific to the idea for six days, what was it exactly that you guys connected on, and what did you see that there was an opportunity for to help out people, well, most of us in the working world in in the church?

BN
Well, there was that aspect of where I was sitting, right? So, as a young guy, I had only ever worked for other people. I had done side hustles here and there, but that doesn't-they didn't really count.

LH
Not full time.

BN
Not full time ever. So he, there was there was this conversation about what is work really, as a Christian, like what when you're starting a business, what's your what's your goals and ambitions? How do you align them properly with the Word of God? How do you understand what the Word of God actually teaches? Because there's so many external implications, or external forces acting on people, obviously in the world and young guys who are very much connected on the internet, watching YouTube videos, listening to podcasts, not always Real Talk.

LH
No, not always, no.

BN
You know, sorry about that. But there's other podcasts too that we listen to, right? And there's so much influence. So how do we how do we kind of break away from that and not allow it to shape us, but allow scripture to shape us as we do these things.

LH
So you're wrestling through all that as a young man, in your first year of business.

BN
Yeah, and one of the things that we both…

Mark Wanders
You see where I had to slow him down a little bit? No, but there was so many things going on in the world. We had this one hour conversation, yeah, and I'm like, whoa, this guy's got so many moving parts here. Let's just let's just calm this down. And then inside of this first in-person meeting that we had, I heard about. First of all, he was working in a factory, right?

BN
Yeah, kind of.

MW
Of sorts. Sort of. You were doing like what you liked, sort of. But then he had a business that he was starting. It was more like a side hustle at the time, and then and then I heard about this six days thing that had been shelved, sitting up there for eight years? And when he kind of unpacked it for me, I was like, "What are you doing? Like this thing needs to come off the shelf. Give it some legs, and or give it some wings, really. And let's see this thing fly.” I did not know he'd invite me into the, the ring, so to speak. But that was where he was at. So we sat down with these multiple strands of ideas, and we dialed it down and said, "All right, let's start somewhere. Like you've got a lot of moving parts. Let's take this thing and unpack it.” Not one at a time, but sometimes one at a time.

LH
What drew you to the idea originally when you guys were talking?

MW
Well, I mean, I did like his passion. I mean, he was passionate on the phone, and he was also frustrated. I could hear it in his voice because he was working for somebody. I mean, there's nothing wrong with working for somebody, but when like, I think when there's an entrepreneurial fire in you, you might as well feed that, and I could I could sense that in him, and um, that's where I was like, this guy needs to be kind of unchained, like out of out of where he's at…

LH
Let him loose!

MW
Yeah, and he had a lot of creativity and a lot of excitement. I'm like, I'm like, that needs to be like that can be channeled like where could that go right? Within our first few meetings too we also said like we set some goals and he was he was exceeding them. He’s like I want to move into for example three days of doing my own thing and it was like no time it was five and he's like I'm giving my boss notification and so on, and he stepped up, stepped up, stepped up every time, and that was that was impressive to see that, and I was like, exciting to be alongside that, and in the midst of this business starting up that he had of his own, Sender Creative, right, was also the Six Days that started to mobilize, but that was still a lot of from pulling it off the shelf. It needed some structure put around it, right, to get it to be formatted towards public presentation, so to speak.

BN
Yeah, and in that initial conversation, I think we both kind of latched onto this concept that work is worshp.

MW
Yes, there was that was an alignment there for sure. You and I were like, "Whoa, yeah, 100%.” I'm like, "This is a young guy understanding that you worship on Sunday, and then that flows into your week.” Yeah, like that is so good. So we had an alignment there, yeah, which was also felt on the on the phone. We're just you know when you pick up the phone with somebody and you all of a sudden you have these alignment things. You're like, okay, this is good. Here is not only say for an excitement to do something with our work, but also when you are bound up in like the foundational pieces of the anchor in Jesus Christ. And we had that, and I was also excited about that in a young guy, young family, young guy, big ideas, and grounded in Christ. So, like, here is a guy, you know, if… and even the idea to say, "Hey, can I mentor you?” type of thing, it was newer for me. I had done it more in the in the say Bible studies and church setting, discipleship groups, that kind of thing. But in the business setting, was less, and just the fact I'm like, okay, well, I think I've gone a few steps ahead of you in business and so on. Maybe there's something here that..

LH
You could help him with.

BN
Oh yeah, I jumped at the opportunity.

MW
And it's interesting. You also mentioned because you already tied in family and faith. So I mean, it's really hard to pull apart. Well, work is over here, family's over there, or even just marriage. If you don't have a family, you got your work, your family, your marriage, your faith, and they don't. They're not all these separate boxes, separate spheres. They all overlap. Right, and that's where when we were in the mentoring setting, it's taking all those things. And sometimes we would spend a whole session talking about, "Hey, here's what's going on at home. I got some...

BN
I goofed up, Mark. Mark, I did this thing… that was funny. I did this thing, and my wife - I don't know what's going on. Mark's like, “Ben, just walk me through what you did.”

MW
So, how many guys are running companies, and if there's a frustration at home, it directly impacts your work?

LH
Probably quite a few.

MW
And then to just lean into somebody and saying like, "Is this okay? or "Where did I screw up?” or "Whoa, did I screw up? How do I deal with it?” So, and I think that that becomes like the mentorship, discipleship. I mean, it's a biblical thing. Discipling, you know, the older discipling the younger, whether it's women or men, and in the context of work, I think that that's a beautiful thing, and then the recognition of that as well.

LH
Okay. So you guys link up, and you're both. I mean, you're definitely benefiting from it. I'm sure you enjoyed providing that that counsel and that that mentorship as well. But specifically on the this idea of Six Days, like, what is it, and what is it? Why is it put out there in reaction to? Like, because you guys were able to kind of just do this somewhat, you know, naturally, and there wasn't any sort of structure in place to make that happen. But do you see like the need for more mentorship or more connection, or like what kind of drew you to this whole idea? Maybe just explain a little bit about what Six Days has going on that way.

BN
Yeah, well, a lot of it comes from my own struggles through growing up, becoming a man, having my own family, and providing for them. Right? You kind of you end up very easily having a perspective about what work is. And it's not always right. And if it's not guided, it chances are it will be wrong. So there was a there was a gap there where I knew that the Bible said stuff about work. I just didn't fully understand what it was or how to apply it. So there was that kind of tension there for me, and the mentorship that Mark gave me, and as he was giving it to me, the Six Days ball started really turning right because I was just like, oh my goodness, what a what a blessing this is! Like, okay, what about those people who might have been in a similar situation and not had the access to something like this, right? And then I was just like, okay, this whole Six Days idea that goes way back eight years. The idea was originally just a just a directory, right? Just to help people find businesses, help businesses find people. I want to roll that into it for sure. Like that needs to be a part of it because if we're going to build an online community centered around businesses in our circles, what more benefit could we really bring people than making those connections between people who have experience, and there's tons of guys in our circles, tons of business owners with just unreal amounts of experience and wisdom, and they would probably love to have opportunities to share that with other people. So that just became the next kind of part of the vision of what it what benefit it could bring, right. So I was like, I'm not just going to build this website for people to connect. I was like, how, how, like, what's the point if there's no broader vision? So what's the next step, the mentorship thing. And then there were some other talks about how else, how else it could really bless people. And one of them was, or one of the other ones, was helping people understand what work is as a Christian. I knew I struggled with understanding that, and I still don't have all the answers, of course. But I'm on a journey right now. I want to find people, and I want to learn, and I want to share what I learn with other people as well. So it's uh, yeah the the The potential is huge for that area.

MW
I want to throw something in too, Lucas. You were saying the benefit to Ben. Yeah. But there's always a benefit to like it's a mutual benefit for sure. It's huge there. Like in the meantime, there was a lot of growth in my own life because there's the constant, you know, old saying: when you when you teach it, you learn it twice. So even just to review, to think about, to be challenged with what's going on in his world, and then self reflecting on that as well. That's huge. So, you know, discipleship, mentoring, whatever it is, there is that mutual piece to it where there's a growth in your own life as well. And again, the attraction with Six Days being, you know, as it says right on the on the homepage, hub for Christian businesses, really like that. It has the invitation there to be the place that you can find other Christian businesses, yeah. Which I think it could be some are just like, "Hey, I got a spot to place an ad. Great.” And they're not thinking about the let's say the mutual aspect of the mentoring and the coming alongside or the you know helping out when stuck and so on. And I think that's where that still has to be exposed a little bit, and that's where first it's building up a little bit of the community, yeah, and then you know bringing that community along towards greater ideas, which also comes out through the newsletter.. there's a weekly or monthly. What is it? A monthly?

BN
I don't really have a schedule. Just kind of send out some emails when I feel like it.

LH
When you feel it's fun.

BN
No, once a month is the plan. Once every two weeks is kind of what's happening, just because there are things moving and announcements and stuff. So it's not always there's different aspects.

LH
So there's, if I'm hearing you guys correctly, there's kind of three things I'm hearing so far. There's this initial connection, a directory portion of it, essentially, right? There's the need for like businesses to know if other businesses exist around them who are Christians who could be complementary or like you know if you're in the trades as an easy example, and you're a drywall, and you know there's a plumber over here, and like so that kind of thing. We have that on a lighter level, I would say. Like if I think about our context here in Southern Ontario, you kind of know what some of the different Reformed businesses are, even just general Christian businesses, right? Because it's not like a strictly Reformed thing at this point, and that's kind of I don't know if that's to be determined, or we'll see where that kind of goes. But there's so there's that connection element there, right? And then there's the kind of the content side of it too, of just like pushing out like thought pieces. Like because I think you had a devotional I saw online a while back, so kind of that element, which is cool, like getting people to think about it and start their start their Friday reading a little what a blurb about how their job could connect to the scripture and whatnot. Yeah, yeah. And then there's so we got the we got the two aspects there, and those and those are important too, right? And then the third one would be that mentorship as well, that discipleship that you guys talk about, and kind of that's again this is initial stages of you guys getting this off the ground. So sounds like a lot of these are just cool ideas to kind of put out there. But would it be fair to say that you kind of got to get that initial connection and buy-in from people in order to make this make this a thing?

BN
Yes, yes, and there's a financial aspect of it as well, right? In order to really make the most of what's all available, in order to make connections and to do all this stuff, there needs to be some element at play there, where we can actually support people doing the mentorships, right? So part of part of what I want to do is like sponsor people who are going through a mentorship with somebody, right? In some cases, the mentor and mentee, like that's just a friendship, sort of a mutual beneficial. But in some cases, I think that there's a ton of potential for a paid position as a mentor, and I would love to see funding for that kind of thing happen.

LH
Do you think that mentors would go for that? Like I don't know. Like I'd be interested what you think about that, Mark. If you guys have talked about that idea because I feel like most mentors are not hurting for money, but they would love to give away.

MW
I’ve been wrestling with that. I kind of have something in the making right now, and I've been tossing around: is it is it something you put out there as a ministry with like without a cost? Is it something you charge for? And sometimes the free is not always an attraction because well, free is non-committal, so that's actually a trail we're on right now.

LH
You got to make a threshold there.

MW
And what is the threshold?

LH
Yeah, I know you can't make it too easy. I would also I would maybe flip it and say like, if you want to be mentored, you got to pony up a little bit.

BN
Oh, absolutely, yeah.

LH
But like the mentors themselves, I feel like they're just going to give if they like to give, right? So, if you guys can be a connection point for like people who are both learn, like I mean, like you said, it's mutually beneficial, right? People seeking to learn from each other, both mentor mentee. Like that's, I think that's a cool idea, and that's something we probably don't have enough of.

MW
What's kind of cool though is also as an older fellow, there's still people older than me, but when you see the younger generation moving forward in business, so the mentor usually is going to be older than the mentee, and my wife and I have done marriage mentoring for years, and we usually like to see couples that are about 10 years ahead mentoring another couple. So if you'd use that same principle in business, you got to be about 10 years up on the other guy. There's nothing more encouraging than to see young guys in business do well and like, “hey, is there any way I can be part of that?” So that is also a little bit of the reward there, because it's a tough economy, it's a tough country to live in, it's a tough province to live in, things are expensive. So if you'd be like, hey, I could save you a little bit of the journey over here, like don't go there, or that's not going to be helpful, or just here's some footings on which to stand as you as you right, and you save a lot of time and energy, and then time is you know a money component there that is also good for older men to say - older men, older women - to be that place in the life of a younger Christian business owner and saying how can I see you flourish, right? So that's exciting as well for an older generation, and I think that could be part of the attraction. Again, we're these are some of the formation pieces, but if Six Days could also be attracting, hey, guys who are saying, “I'll throw my hat in the ring. I've done this for a few decades, and let me know if somebody needs help in this area.” Put some prerequisites around that. What's what are the where do we mentor up to, right? Yeah. So that's part of the attraction that we want to see as well. So that'd be amazing.

BN
But, at the very least, to just encourage it at the like at basic levels, the concept and the need for mentorship is real. Our culture has said, "Hey, I got my phone, I got ChatGPT, I got all my podcasts, and the Alex Hermosie, and I'm just going to watch these videos, and I'm going to start my business, and that's how I'm going to do it. That's where I was. That's where I started, and then I was I was just given this glimpse into okay. Here's a real human being who's lived through these things, who has a good solid grasp on scripture and can read that into it. The work that you're doing every day is now completely changed.

LH
Definitely.

BN
As a Christian, it's a we're doing something different every day.

MW
Co-creators.

BN
We are co-creators with the Almighty God. We are taking the blessings that He gives us, and we're multiplying them in a lot of cases, and we're using them to the benefit of others in service to Him, ultimately.

LH
Yeah, but in doing that, you still need to be as wise as serpents, innocent as doves, and we can all like you can have - I don't want to say Christianese too much - but like there can be, yeah, you can put a bit of a Christianese spin on it, whatever. You still have to go out there and compete in the marketplace. Real life still hits you in the face, and you still got to make a paycheck, sort of thing.

BN
But are we are we outsourcing our thinking? Yeah, I that's what I'm worried about.

LH
I would agree. I think there's a danger to that. And so many resources online are like completely secular. But they had like Hermosie as a guy I listen to all the time. Totally got great business advice. But he's not a Christian.

BN
He's got some bad business advice too. If you're coming at it from a Christian perspective.

LH
Sure.

BN
I would argue, there's some things that he said where I was just like, I don't know if a Christian should be following that example, right? and that's where I think there's an opportunity as well. Is yeah, not outsourcing our thinking, like I said, and this is what you guys are doing too here at Real Talk. Like you're taking these concepts, you're taking these people, bringing them in, and just saying like, let's have this discussion because it all needs to happen and yeah, we're in a crazy time in the world where you can post a picture online and 1000s of people will see it, and it's so easy to connect with other people right now, it's crazy, but it's all digital. So let's encourage that in person connection as well. So it's both fronts. Let's hit them both. That's the exciting part.

LH
I think so. Yeah, as a young guy in business, like knowing that there's other people out there that would be interested in you know giving that advice or whatever, like in community, right? Like that's a whole, huge aspect to what I think you guys are trying to solve for.

MW
And even if the even if the business wisdom does come from a non-Christian source, that you are also being discipled in discernment. You're extracting the nuggets, and leaving behind what is not godly, not helpful, whatever, right? So that wisdom and discernment comes when you're spending time with spiritual insight, right?

LH
Well, we have such a like a wealth, like literally wealth within our circles, but like just a wealth of businesses, all these different types, like much higher ratio of business owners than the average public, even, right? Like for guys in business specifically, but even those just in the working world, like if you're in a given trade or you're whatever, a teacher, nurse, like fireman, whatever. There's so many people we know in our churches who also would have the same job. We could give you some advice on how to kind of level up in your career and become better at what you do, sort of thing, right? And having that place to kind of go for that initial, like, oh, who does this again oh okay these people cool yeah let's connect.

BN
That's all part of the story too right like I've in multiple scenarios it was like I need a business I know I'd love to work for somebody with inner circles I'd love to do this I'd need to hire a plumber I didn't know where to go and that's kind of where part of where it stemmed from.

MW
And maybe break down a little bit of the, and maybe it's an older mindset, but where we used to kind of build all our own castles and we just set them all beside each other. And how are you doing with yours? And I'm doing with mine. Sometimes it's even look over the shoulder and do the comparison game, as opposed to saying let's crack open our books and how we do this, and yeah, let's see you do well and be excited when someone else does well too. And I think that's a little bit of vulnerability there that we're not always used to. And I think the younger generation is a little bit more of a we thing than a me thing. I think there is a bit more. Let us do this together as opposed to I am going to do this over here on my own.

LH
Yeah, it is kind of actually a contrast that way, though, because like by like the older generations, they were very good at building institutions, churches, schools, etc. We may or may not have lost some of that inertia or whatever, right? Like, there's some draining support for schools, especially in this area, right? It's like, oh, okay, like, but then I also agree with you that there is more of a we attitude, maybe just in the business front or something too. So it's kind of like two curtains going in different directions.

MW
You wonder when they were building the churches and schools. I think back home they still had their own gig going on, bu.

LH
You could be right but there is a lot of intermingling…

MW
I'm not saying there wasn't any sharing. I'm just saying yeah there was a lot of standalone.

LH
They put up the walls.

MW
Yeah, yeah. There were walls put up, and I do think we're seeing that. Like we're gonna, we're - let's face it, we're gonna need each other into the future of what our country is facing.

LH
Yeah, I agree.

MW
Times are hard, things are expensive, and it's gonna be leaning in and lending a hand in whatever way, shape, or form that that that looks like.

BN
Exactly.

MW
And there is that encouragement of seeing people work together. Like what? Like you were saying earlier, right? You're in these groups on a regular basis that that you meet together and you share the difficulties going on. Like what a what a beautiful set that setup that is for Christian business minds to just sit there, even if it's in the pain of one guy going, okay, what do I do? Yeah, you're not alone in your office or in your bedroom going, how do I provide for my family? You've got six other guys around you that are saying, hey, we've got your back, and let's work through this, right?

LH
Well, because like we talk about this a lot in preparing for this episode, like how much of a formation zone that work is right, like you're putting, you know, typically at least 40 hours a week in, sort of thing, right? Yep. So that's so much time, and like, do we think about that enough?

MW
Yes.

LH
How much it’s forming us, right?

BN
How much it's forming us, and how much it displays who we are, right? It's a both and, and that's where the mentorship comes in as well. Where I'm walking along. I keep thinking back to the like the apprentice style of learning a trade, right? You're not just… like in back in the day. They often would have lived together. They would have done life together. And this actually also goes back to the recent Reformed Perspective article. Generational businesses, like the importance of walking alongside your children as they're walking, watching you do your business and see how you interact with a difficult customer and how you display honesty and you fix your mistakes that you make honestly, etc. Like the examples could keep going, but like how often is that actually happening? And the mentorship, it's kind of a snippet of that, right? We were only meeting for, I mean, we said like an hour, but it was always two or three hours a month, because we're both talkers, as you can tell.

LH
Yeah, that makes three of us.

BN
Oh man. But yeah, you get a snippet of that, and it's just like okay, I can I can speak from my experience. What are you being challenged by? Back in the day, they would have lived together, and the apprentice would look to the master for like learning how to do the skill, learn the trade, but also how to do life, how to take care of their family, be a parent, how to be just a good community member,

LH
And we have some of that today still, absolutely, but we could do more of that as well.

BN
I think so. I think we, I think, I think we have some of it, but I think like when you when it comes to the accessibility of technology and information, I think we can give ourselves the feeling that we're getting that, but we're not actually getting it. We're just watching a video. That's where my concern is too. Where it's like, oh yeah, I got all this information. Yeah, but you're not you're not doing it with somebody. There's a big difference between being taught and being mentored.

LH
Yeah, yeah. No, I know what you mean. There's no, it's not dialogical. It's not back and forth. You're not like reinforcing each other. And oh, okay, yeah. If I learn this lesson, then I have this question for you.

BN
Yeah.

LH
Then I come back with that question. You go, I hadn't thought about that. And then here's a new lesson that way. And then yeah, you kind of like keep working it out that way too.

BN
Totally, yeah.

LH
Yeah. Okay, so I think okay, so we talked a lot about like kind of what the need was for this kind of service, and so I think it's really cool what you guys are doing there. Maybe a little bit more on this topic of treating work as the primary place of obedience. I think this is a question that we should kind of consider. Like, what does it mean to do that exactly? I know you guys had spent some time thinking about that, maybe, but what does it mean? Treating work as the primary place of obedience.

MW
I think primary might be, maybe, misleading? It might be too strong. Primary, as in like primary formation. Of course, would happen within the home. And then blessed by your weekly worship. But let's face it. I mean, even what the entity is called Six Days. There are six days you shall labor, and one you rest. So we are spending a significant amount of time doing our work. So it's within that space, and let's not even look at work as say the paycheck now, or the entity, or the enterprise, or the business, but think about work in all the tasks that we do throughout the week. We also rest from our home labors, other than your basic needs on a Sunday, right? A little bit of cooking or whatever, take care of the kids, whatever you need to do. But we're stopping, like the yard work, the cleaning, the fixing, the repairs, you name it. So, work being the obedience there, a primary one of them, as the place of obedience would be like I'm thinking of Christ being our master. Like it is the Lord Christ you are serving. So, and that's pertaining to work. So, that being the case, there's going to be a holy obedience that you would have also as you conduct yourself, and that's a learned and a maturing thing because I think back to years ago how I may have treated people that I'd want to say that was not a good way to do that, right? And you grow in that. And how to forgive quickly, how to take ownership. What, who are the people who are under me that I'm responsible for? Am I clear in my language? Am I clear in my instructions? And part of the taking ownership is even just instead of pushing the blame on someone else, pointing the blame and saying, "No, that that's actually on me. I'll take responsibility.” Especially if you're a business owner, “where did I fail to communicate?” So it's so easy to point the finger and blame on someone else, which is going right back to the garden, right? Like she did, like right, and we go there so quickly. So work is going to be a place where we do a lot of neat things and build a lot of cool stuff, but it's going to be a place where there's a lot of mess ups too.

LH
Yeah, you feel that pain or the pain point, the friction every day.

MW
And work has, of course, the burden of the curse now, which is redeemed in Jesus. But there's the reality of living in a world that's still weighted heavy by sin and even our own sinful desires that can throw us off in any given day, where we're going to be working in those relationships that are close and regular, and sometimes, hey, you're in my space bubble, right? Or rubbing shoulders, or even just the quiet annoyances, whatever it might be, and I think in those places is where God tests us. Think of the fruit of the spirit, right? The love and the joy and the peace and the patience. Like these are all things that are stretched when you're in close proximity to others. So a lived obedience in the workplace. So, if I think about if God gives us this work to do, how are you representing me there, even under the circumstances of being very difficult? So that's where the obedience piece comes in, and then put all of the, of the externals of like difficult economy, and maybe your dollar doesn't go as far as it used to. And will you trust me in this? So work is so shaping in that as well. Like, are you willing to give your first fruits back to me? Type of thing, right? So all of that is in the space where obedience is. Will you take this good gift of what I give you in your health, able to generate, and will you also turn around and serve me with that? Like honor the Lord with your wealth, right? As the verse goes. So that's kind of the right the word perspective of where I'm seeing it. I don't know if you want to add something to that.

BN
When you when you say trust, like that strikes a chord for me, at least. Like in especially in the beginning, going from… I say this to a lot of people who are considering starting businesses or have started businesses. Something that like a big lesson that I learned is I like you have to trust when you're starting a business. It is a different kind of trust,

MW
Starting and going.

BN
Starting and going, of course, as you go along, because before there was there was like there was somebody in between the…

LH
Layer.

BN
There's a layer, right? Safety layer. There's like there's a safety layer. I was like, okay, my boss, he's gonna keep me busy. He's gonna make sure I'm being paid and my kids are being fed as a result. Then you start something and you start to think, no, this is it's just me and you, God. Like I need you, and the amount of times I prayed those words, I need you when I was starting my business with tears in my eyes, just because of the like the fear of it and the trust that came as a result of that. Like that has been it has been such a blessing. Then that's another aspect of - a lot of people don't really talk about much, I haven't heard it, at least - is that like starting a company, working, or being an entrepreneur, it can have a significant impact on your on your walk with God, positive or negative. For myself, it's been very positive.

LH
Was easy for it to be quite negative, though.

BN
It would be very easy.

LH
Totally suck all the life out of you into your business.

BN
Yeah, yeah, and I take zero credit. By the grace of God alone. My thankfulness and trust in Him have grown significantly as a result of this journey and partially because of people who came and walked beside me, like what a blessing that is. And it's yeah, it's totally… What what I'm getting at is that formation that happens at work can be significantly impacting, or can significantly impact your faith.

LH
Totally, it's such a testing ground, right? Like maybe I said it too strongly with the primary portion of it, right? Because I agree, obviously home and church are those are foundational, but like it's just from a where you spend your time perspective, like you're getting tested there, you know, five days a week generally. It's also a huge witness opportunity, and like I, yeah, I was just thinking as you were kind of explaining that, Mark and Ben as well too. But like, what if for like your home visit, you know how if you go apply for a job and you got to call the references or the references get called whatever, if your elders called like three or five of your coworkers or your employees, or clients, yeah, or suppliers, anybody.

MW
Like I work with this guy. Here's three people, call them, and so see what they think. I do a little interview here, and then we'll come up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. It would almost raise the fire. It's like, whoa, right?

LH
Yeah, but like just thinking about that example in my head, I was like, yeah, that really like brings it home for me. I'm like, yeah, what do your people think of you, or what do your coworkers think of?

BN
But if you're if that's what it would require for you to do something right, then your faith there's something wrong with your understanding of who God is. He’s watching.

MW
That’s true but I think like we're kind of like we forget. Yeah, so we go out the next day. Well, that was a good day. I kind of like I did one up for God. Like so, I can just I can just I'm gonna run my own for a while here, and then we go run on our own, and we like trip and fall all over the place. So we're right back to like right. I actually need God, and we like I'm going through the Exodus and Leviticus right now in the Old Testament, and like so many times, you're like you, you dumb Israelites. Wait a minute!

LH
Oh, that's me. Oh no.

MW
There I am. Like you just got delivered. You just like through the sea, the food, the water, the manna. Like how many things? And they grumble, grumble, grumble, and like even on that end of it, it's so quick that we can be like…

BN
God sends all these people to hold them accountable, right? And that's something that we didn't really touch on earlier about the whole mentorship thing, the accountability that comes from that is actually probably one of the more important parts. It's easy to forget, but so we did our mentorship kind of year, and immediately after, I started noticing some screws coming loose in all the processes that I had set up and all the things that I had had started doing really well. Like I need my time with Mark because at least I'm at least I'm doing it for him, right?

MW
So, what that does as we represent Christ is like actually there's an there's an accountability to God. So then we are called as the physical representation of Jesus in each other's lives, right? Like, hey, like we are the body. So here we are holding each other accountable. It was also again a mutual thing. I got Ben showing up. I can't say “Ben, you got to do this in your life” but I'm over here doing that, right? That doesn't work. So there's this whole mental thing going on. You're doing like the accountability also becomes your own. So inside of that that mentoring…

LH
You point each other back to Christ. Awesome.

MW
I was thinking too. Also, just and the obedience piece is for guys anyway. And I know this was a big one in my life. Was sometimes we take our work to the to the ultimate level. Like we're like, work is what it is. Like, work is top. And like, I would, I tend to work a lot, and it was like workaholic kind of slip in. And I think there too, if you're talking about obedience, is to recognize where it is that I might actually lean in too strong and think it's me or my work is everything. Lean into my work for like even guys may escape in their work. Like I don't want to deal with it. I'm just going to work.

LH
Yep.

MW
Whether it's long hours working the shop, wherever it is. So I think there's a piece there that to also be able to stop working not only on the day of rest, of course, but also like where are the portions of my day? Okay, I've put in my time, and I do need to spend time with wife or children or whatever else it is, because otherwise there's that element of escapism or my work is my everything, right? So there's that obedience there too, which I think again, if you know that within yourself, to kind of hold that in check, or have that accountability thing, say like, right, I've got this thing going on, I find myself working all the time.

LH
Yeah, well, and also defining what the work is too, right? Because I think obviously in today's day and age, we have a very like compartmentalized view of work in terms of like this is my normal nine to five or whatever, right? But like you were mentioning earlier, Ben, in terms of like how we used to work a lot more in community, like kind of pre-industrial revolution sort of thing too. I think Nancy Pearcey has a book on that. I think it was in the Total Truth book. I can't remember exactly, but kind of just talking about, yeah, how that's it was so much different, and families were all working together, right? So obviously we get away from that with the change in technology and over the last few hundred years, but like for us as Christians to think, think hard and long about this. To be like, hey, like, yeah. How much time do I want to put into my daily endeavor that way? And what other responsibilities do I have in the home front, specifically as guys? Because I agree with you. It's very…

MW
Or more church, right? Or school? Where like there might be other places that I can be called. And the hard thing is, you mentioned nine to five, but the hard thing is when you own your own business. When you yeah, you actually can flex those hours. You can't have the shop nearby, or the offices nearby, or in your home, or whatever it is

BN
On your phone,

MW
And you're trickling out there, and you're spending the time there. So just a caution to say, well, how am I guarding against leaking into my work all the time? Because it is not a nine to five.

LH
It's the benefit of like it can be more like part of your life, which is it feels more natural and nice that way. I guess you're not like oh I'm like doing a long commute and I'm doing a nine to five, doing a long commute back, but also it can just never end as well. So you have to be careful with that.

MW
Think of the farmer where he's up. The farm. Yeah, totally 4:30 in the morning and you're still doing work at seven eight at night sometimes right, or more. And seasonal. Like we live in Ontario here like life is seasonal so there's an urgency there all the time it's go go go go you've only got from you know this to you know April May to October November it's go go go and then the snow comes and then you got to do all the repairs and then do it all over again, right? Like, so we are seasonal. You go down south, we've been in some of the warmer climates, and it's like, yeah, we'll get it tomorrow because they can. Yeah, we don't always have the tomorrow.

LH
We got the work ethic, that's not a problem. No, that's right. But it's like we got all this effort and energy. But it's like, how are we spending it, and like, are we being wise with it, right? And yeah, I think that mentorship and that accountability is great for helping channel that way.

BN
Absolutely, and it doesn't always have to be like we were talking about earlier, it doesn't always have to be one on one, and sometimes it's a group setting.

LH
Local business group, whatever.

BN
Right. So you were talking about a local group of guys that you meet with. I have a similar thing that recently got started up, and it's been it's been such a blessing. Like we've only met twice, but already to even just today we had our second meeting. I learned something from each person that was there, and we do that accountability thing as well, where we each commit to doing something for the next week or for the next meeting. And now the accountability is real. Like you've got eight guys, seven guys, who you're gonna are you gonna go to the next meeting and say I didn't, I didn't even try, right?

LH
You feel the pressure.

BN
The pressure’s on. But not just that. Like we had a conversation about giving and how like as business owners, how do you how do you give? How do you tithe? What's that? What does that look like? Because it does change in in that new kind of circumstance that you might find yourself in. And I was so inspired by one of the guys who was talking about his time as a deacon. What that taught him, what the need is, and it changed the way he gave.

MW
There's the old saying, "Give till it hurts.” I don't know if we always do that.

BN
I don't. I don't think we do.

LH
Well, it reminds me. You saying that reminds me that piece, well, there was two pieces in RP over the last year, year half or so. Marty VanDriel, the assistant editor over there had a piece on this whole like corporate tithing sort of thing, and then Bruce DeBoer, the chairman for the board of RP, had a great piece more recently on their kind of approach of like giving like the 1% off the top, which ends up like trickling down to be about 10% or whatever. But like it's just that that faith of giving it up front. So different ways to do it, but I think like thinking creatively and what works for your business cycle and cash flow cycle and all that. Like it's cool to think about those things and it's important to think about those things and encourage each other to be yeah like you say give until it hurts like don't just give a little bit here. Like think about yeah don't think about your business just as like this, like I'm just gonna make tons of money and give it away, sort of thing. But like, yes, it can generate profit. It should generate profit. It needs to generate profit. But like, that's a piece of it. And then also think about all the lives you can impact.

BN
Yeah, and be strategic about it. Right? There's efficient ways to give. There's strategic ways to maybe withhold giving because the future there's something happening that could potentially… right there's all these different….

LH
Give in services of what you do

BN
There’s all different ways to give. I think that the in person giving of time I mean personally that's a struggle for me I like that's something that I know I need to work on, um, because like that's the most valuable thing I own, um, but it's something that I've realized now owning a business you have mastery over your own time. That's something that Mark had to work into me because I was still, kind of stuck in my old nine to five thinking. It's just like I gotta, I gotta put the hours on here, here, here. He was like, "No, man, like you can do things a little differently now. You have mastery over your own time.” Which changes. Okay, where can I give my time? Right? That nine to five, those hours in between, they used to belong to so and so, my boss, but now, now I can I can be flexible and I can say, oh yes, there's a need here. I can take a break from my work and I can go help there. Yeah, what a blessing that is too.

LH
Totally, totally. So this has been this has been great. Like I really appreciate the kind of high level overview we've done now, but I think we all know that like it wouldn't be Real Talk if we didn't get into the real talk. So I'm gonna hit you with a few different topics here of like areas in business life where yeah, if you had a mentor, you might wrestle through these issues, and perhaps you guys have in in the year or so that you guys have been kind of keeping each other accountable that way. But I would say off the hop. I know you're passionate about this one, Ben, but there's a real need for men in particular. If you would like your wife to stay home, you got to get out there and you got to make some decent money nowadays. Like because of this whole two income trap and the way the real estate market is and all that. Even with it declining, it's still just brutal. Yeah. So, like, what are some conversations you guys have had in this topic, and how does that kind of play into Six Days?

BN
There's multiple aspects to this that I've thought about deeply. Let's just say that.

LH
Yeah. Walk me through one.

BN
One of them is, I think it's incredibly important for - long term - for the for the Christian faith, for the kingdom of Christ, for discipleship to happen in the home, and that needs to happen by parents, specifically the mother. Right, they have a task given by God to raise the children up. Obviously, the father plays a massive role in that. But in today's day and age, like you were saying, with the costs of everything, the father needs to make quite a bit of money in order to create a space for that mother to stay home and raise the children, right? It's a totally different scenario

LH
If you want to own your own home. Although rent is pretty rent is also pretty crazy too.

BN
Rent is pretty expensive too, but there's another side to that. I'm not sure how much I want to share because this is this gets really personal. My wife and I, when we had our first child, that this was a this was a big topic for us in multiple ways, partially because she's a very ambitious woman, and she loved working, partially because we there was a tension there because she also knew because she's a biblical woman that she had a role to play in the home.

LH
Yeah.

BN
So we struggled through this, and the third tension was the financial aspect of understanding what I was making, what our costs were. When we entered into that phase where mat leave kind of ran out, right, and then you get to a point where it's like, okay, what are we gonna do? We just prayed, and we said, “God, we know we're not in a position to sustain what we have here on Ben's income, but we believe that you have called Jacqueline to be here”, and we just prayed that, and we trusted, and we made the decision that she was not going back to work, and God provided, not by giving me a raise, but He provided in some other way. And if you if you want to talk about learning trust, that is that is a hard lesson. But the Bible is just so full of these examples of God making something where there wasn't anything, right? I was I was dwelling on Jesus feeding the 5000 men, 10,000 probably people with a couple loaves of bread and a couple little fish.

MW
He always gave thanks.

BN
First, he gave thanks. Yeah, yeah. So you got the faith of Andrew bringing, bringing this child who's like, hey, he's got a lunch, 5000 people here. Jesus, what can you do? And Jesus says, "Thank you”, to his father, and then he distributes it, and everybody eats all that they need. Actually, no, sorry, I forgot a detail there, and this important detail. He gives it to his disciples, and they distribute it. Right? He calls men to do the distribution for him, and then everybody eats enough. They're all satisfied, and there's more left over than when they started with. Right? Like what a what a picture of the God that we serve, the mighty King Jesus, who is ruler over all, all authorities His, that includes your bank account.He will make $5 go 100 times as far. He can. He can do it all. Understanding that and running your your home and your business, understanding that I think is critical but also understanding the structure that God has laid out for us from creation, and obviously it doesn't work for everybody. There's always going to be examples of situations where things aren't quite the same. Yep, but the principles are there, and we ought to be guided by them, yeah.

LH
Mark, are we being dramatic as young guys, making this out to be a bigger challenge than it is, or do you see a shift?

MW
I see a huge shift, particularly in in the cost of living. Like it used to be, you could have a reasonable job, even a small business, like one or two, you know, people, and buy a home and buy a car or truck, whatever you need. Have a car or van for your wife, and that's how we grew up. And actually, in our case, my wife would stay home with the children, but she would also take care of the business side of things the accounting and so on yeah took care of the books. Did that for multiple years still doing that today as our son took over the company and that was a great way so that was an innovative way to say “okay how do we now have mom at home with the kids but also you know working her own hours” evenings or when the kids are napping, or whatever, getting creative, taking the kids to the bank, or whatever it was. That was a way of providing in that scenario with mom at home and in the business. But in terms of what you're asking, also on this whole, are we seeing things like challenging? Certainly, right now. Sometimes I wonder how is it that even on you know the $35 to $40 an hour wage, like how can you over 40 or 50 hours a week pay for all the needs that you would have between living expenses, groceries, now fuel going crazy on us, and then just simply saying, you know, giving and so on as well. So it certainly takes a lot of creativity. It takes a lot of mutual working together. I think that's huge. Like, how are you doing? A type of thing, and the younger generation is doing that. Getting creative, getting creative, also even just in living spaces. Totally. So, how do you now maximize on this house? Is there living on the land?

BN
Oh, multi generational!

MW
That's right. That seems to be a buzzword. A thing that's coming back. There's more units on this property than there. You know, the single family dwelling, you know, of old. So we adapt, but we don't do it in sort of this void. We are those who take it to God, as you as you have done as well, and just say, "Lord, what would you have us do here?” And that takes a huge element of faith, because I mean, we all like to have it that there's money coming in, money in the bank account, we can make some decisions financially. Whereas if it's like, I just had a young fella say to me today, like living paycheck to paycheck is no fun.

LH
No.

MW
Nervous to take the next step. What is the next step? I don't see what the next step is. Work is slow. I mean, people have lost jobs. Contracts are smaller. There's a lot more guys bidding on contracts, what is it, right? So that makes it very difficult.

LH
Want to pick up on the multi generational aspect that you kind of raised there too. It also ties into yeah having jobs that are that can sustain a living wage nowadays too, right? In terms of like, if you are successful in your business, you grow your business. Do you grow your business to sell your business, or do you grow it with the intention of always making a multi-generational, pass it off the next generation thing? Because you just mentioned you did that with your son, and that's I think a great thing. And those jobs are still there, and that's that business is still active, and they're doing their thing too and supporting the community in that way. But you also see larger businesses or businesses of different sizes, whatever, and they will sell off. And we've seen that in our church community locally here as well. And then you go, “Okay, well, I'm sure that money is getting used and supporting our various causes, and that's all fine and good. But those jobs are kind of gone, and they've moved away.” So, but yet still, some businesses spring up out of that as well. So, I'm just curious for your perspective if that's something you guys have talked through, or that's a topic for the next business meetup for Ben.

MW
We haven't talked about this directly, but I will say this. I've thought about this even in my own world, but selling companies or whatever it is. If there's income generated even from the sell-off of a company, I think there's a stewarding of those, stewarding of those funds that you turn around and then tie into something like Six Days as that business hub of like, okay, I need contractors to do this, even if you've moved out of the area or other guys are setting up business. How do you just start that ball rolling all over again? Whether it's me needing to do a renovate or a build on or add another dwelling or whatever it is, get creative. That we can also look at the younger generation. Who can I invest in by even just seeing them do meaningful work? And then you can even mentor by hiring, saying, "Hey, I see you doing this in your business. This is you're doing this really well”, or “are you open for some advice? Because here's what I saw. Maybe room for improvement.” So that's a way to transfer wealth that it's through meaningful work, and then also, what is it that that money is generating in terms of giving and investing in other means, other than you know not just contractors coming to work for you. Perhaps it would be initiatives or new entities that are needed, new ministries that are started up. Lots of opportunities.

LH
Yeah, there’s good that comes out of it both ways. But yeah, yeah. I just, I guess, yeah. There's, it's gonna be different for everyone in their scenario. But I just think of that article that that was in RP recently about the multi generational businesses, and I think you talk about living in multi generational situations, and yeah, that's kind of making a comeback, maybe more so out of financial necessity. But it's kind of it might be some hidden blessings there as well for us to kind of think about that more and more. Because I, I'll confess, as a young guy in business, like my mindset is always like you build it to sell it, and like yeah, maybe you sell it, maybe you won't sell it.

MW
So this is the thing. So I had the company that I pretty much just finished selling to our oldest son and originally when we started, I was in partnership with a brother that lasted for a decade. Then we split, went on our own. And I like way back when it was like this is what I love to do. Was not thinking about building a company to sell. It was working with my hands so that I could provide for my family. Later on, as our family, we had children and some of them were boys, and then one of them took interest. Then it became like, oh, okay, like maybe this succession thing is something we'll do. And then we did do it, and it worked very well. So other ones like big businesses are like build them up. They become you know moving entities. Is like let's build it up and sell it. Who's going to grab it? Highest bidder type of thing. And even if you did that, so with your company, you're like wow, I just sold it good money. You're going to turn around as a Christian, and that's going to end up somewhere in the Christian community, right? You're going to either buy a home, or you're going to invest in other people, or you start another company, or start three companies.

LH
Well, it's super, it's actually really efficient if you think about it, because you're getting paid out on your EBITDA, basically your profit. Let's say for the purpose of this podcast, times number of years that they live to valuable, you know. So if it's like 5x, 6x, if it's pretty valuable, whatever. So you could take that. Let's say it's only 3x or 4x, and you're getting paid on that money, and you would get that, and you can go take that money and do more with it in the you know proceeding three to four years, right? So there's a good case to be made for that too. But again, I read that piece. I thought, huh, that is that is interesting about the whole multi generational thing. But feel like that's more when you're like in a particular like trade, pure trade. Like we're like buying and selling commercial steel doors. Like it's like, hey, that's cool. But I have two daughters. Like, do they want to do that? Who knows? Probably not. But so we'll see where things go. But that's a long way down the road. But that got me thinking too.

BN
Totally.

LH
Okay. I'm gonna hit you with one other. Do you have a thought before I go to next topic?

BN
No, I'm okay.

LH
I want to hit you one other one of like a real talk issue on when we're talking work, workplace, whatever. There's a stereotype out there, and I've seen it. I've talked to different people who've experienced it too, where you have the older Dutch owner, and yeah, maybe he's given to the church and doing the right things, whatever. But he's cheap, tight fisted, very cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheapest chips. And it doesn't always show up in the worst spots because there's a good like could be thrifty, obviously. But it can definitely show up not only in a cheapness in pay sometimes for sure, keeping people at a wage that like you probably could pay them more if you wanted to, but you justify it because you give money away in your business, but also just not investing in people, right? Like I see this specifically in the trades where like a guy been working at a place and he'll be kind of stuck at this level, and the owner doesn't really want to grow the business, he doesn't really invest anything extra in his guy, and that guy in turn gets frustrated. He might work there from 18 to 25. In that period of time, he gets married, has a kid or two, and then, like you say, he's like, even if you're making 35 bucks an hour, you're like still pretty tight nowadays. Like I got to make some more money. Still, this is nuts, right? So, like, what about that sort of like issue in our circles? Like, you think that if we had some more mentorship and accountability, we could kind of talk through those things, or is that something that you've seen? Especially, I'm thinking of you, Mark, maybe over the years too. If has there been growth in that area, or am I making too much of this stereotype and it's not actually that big of a deal?

MW
What I've seen, and there are a number of businesses in Niagara, I have seen, thankfully, actually a lot of Christian owners who do invest in their people and they take it seriously. They're interested in their home life, interested what's going on, making sure that hey, do you have enough to meet your needs? Even taking care when there's an injury like a health difficulty. So actually, I've heard more good than bad. It is a real diss, I will say, on let's even talk about Jesus here. That like, if you would be a business owner and you're known to be a Christian and you are either you know stretching people thin or cutting corners or doing shady deals, I think that's dragging the name of Jesus in the mud. So I think accountability there would be like okay, number one, who do I know doing this? Maybe that's the time you should be having a conversation with them and say, “listen, this is what I heard. Is it true?” Because I mean, it might not be true. It might be just hearsay. But certainly. again, thankfully, a lot of the businesses I know they've taken very good care of their people, and I think that's good to see. And then that's where accountability and mentorship, and even those groups you were talking about, business groups and stuff. That's where you're into, like, how are you treating your people, and how do you make sure that they're taken care of? No, it's been probably more positive than negative. But occasionally you're like, that's really not good. People will always hold out and say, I know that guy's a Christian, and right away they'll forget all the good stuff going on in the Christian realm, and be like that one guy, like he's a jerk, and that means a lot of those Christians are just, they're just cheapskate Dutchmen, and right, like that's it's sad to say, but the…

LH
The bad apple can spoil a bunch.

MW
It clings around, it just sticks around for a long time. So just to not go there.

BN
Yeah, we talk a lot about holding everything with an open hand, right? An important principle. So, whether or not it's happening, I don't have enough insight to say. I'm sure it is happening in some cases, but yeah, absolutely. The effects of holding people accountable, and also just seeing if there's ways to kind of inject some principles like holding everything with an open hand and understanding that it belongs to God.

LH
Yep. Well, and having that honesty and that open dialog and communication can help with that too, right? Because that's a response you can see out of fear, right? If you're always not sure as a business owner, and there's always a ton of that still at that element of yeah, you don't know what the future brings. No one does, right? Yeah, and you have to be wise about how you know whatever run your run your affairs. But yeah, having that open hand, having that trust, whether that's starting or continuing on, and early or late in the journey, there's that's never going to go away. I don't think.

MW
No. Wouldn't it be interesting if every Christian business owner, male or female, wouldn't it be amazing that it would be almost an expectation that you had at least one, no less than one, like a mentor, a Christian mentor in in your life. I mean, I think I think the church could do that as well. Like, who are who are the people that are around you that are walking the journey with you? But in business too, like okay, you're starting up a company. Like, let's go on to Six Days, let's say, and who is in your area that could mentor? Not only mentoring you, we wanted to see you do well, but also that you would honor Christ in your business because it is the face of Jesus going out there every day in the world as we do our work. This is our ministry. We are on mission in the kingdom of God. So to take that seriously and say, "Hey, look! I just heard you starting up, right? And look, I don't have it all figured out, but if we're here, you know, as iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another, you wanna journey for a while together? I'm not saying for a life, but maybe for a time?” And yeah, other people will come in. Now you've got this other group you're with, right? So yeah, I think that if that wasn't necessarily a prerequisite, but at least like that's we go there. Like I just heard you're in business, okay? And that became part of the business formation is like don't do it alone. Yeah, not a good scene. A lot of just for a whole lot of reasons, you can be you know shot in all kinds of different directions. Coerced here and whoops, did that, and shady deals, whatever, right?

LH
Oh, and you feel like you can't talk about it too. Like sometimes I feel like as a business owner, like if we're thinking specifically on the owner side of things as well, of just like, oh, these are unique challenges, or like maybe like this whole imposter syndrome of like, yeah, I don't know what I'm doing half the time. Yeah, like that's actually a lot of people. Some people do, and they can mentor you. They've been there before. Yeah, they made the mistakes,

MW
And to just reduce the whole shame. Like I got this problem. Like, okay, thanks for sharing. Like, like, how do we go through it? It's worked. Actually, I really did bad, and like, I'm just confessing right now, right? Like, just to say that was that was not good. And then there's people I gotta go back to and seek forgiveness, right? Like I think that's part of the growth in the kingdom.

LH
Totally.

BN
Absolutely, it's all part of it.

LH
It's a it's important realm. It's a realm we spend a lot of time in. It's one that we can help each other along in in our walk with Christ. And yeah, the business is a mission field.

BN
And the work is worship.

LH
And the work is worship. Amen to that. Wonderful. Well, thanks, gents. I really appreciate you guys making the time and coming down the studio. This was a lot of fun, and yeah. If you got any, you got any closing comments or thoughts you want to leave? Anything you felt like we missed, or feel like we left the people with a good nugget or two.

BN
Well, at least something to think about. Something to chew on, hopefully and get the conversation started.

LH
Yes, yeah, this is just open up the dialog, and it's I mean it's the same lines as Real Talk of just hey, we can inform a little bit, fantastic. Have some guests on that that know a thing or two and inspire future conversations, whether that's in business, in church, family, marriage, anywhere in life, right? There's as we all just journey on this life together and..

MW
On a mission, as the kingdom of God advances through our work.

LH
Bingo, Yeah, this has been Real Talk. We'll catch you next time.