Below is a transcript of the episode. Please note that this transcript was automatically generated and may contain some errors.

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Opening
What if your home was more than just a place of routine? What if it became a place of worship? Family worship is not complicated, but it does require intention. We often say we don’t have time, but the reality is we make time for what matters, and when we consider all that Christ has done for us, worship in the home is not an obligation, but rather a grateful response. Today, I’m joined by Pastor and author Dr. Brian Najapfour, and we’re talking about what it means to intentionally lead our families in worship.

A big thanks to our official sponsor, Trivan, for making this conversation possible. Be sure to check them [email protected].

Now on to the show.

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Lucas Holtvluwer
We’re glad to have you here.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Thank you.

Lucas Holtvluwer
And we’re gonna be talking all about family worship, of course, but I thought you have a very interesting story coming from your father from Iran, and you growing up in the Philippines and coming to know Christ. Can you tell us a little bit just about your story in a brief few minutes before we’re going to jump into the family worship. How did you become a Christian, and what was it like growing up in the Philippines?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, so I grew up Roman Catholic, which is the predominant religion in the Philippines. Yeah, I think even today, about 80% of the population is Roman Catholic, but I imagine nominal. A lot of them, they don’t really go to church, and that was the case with me when I was in the Philippines, when I was Roman Catholic. I would go to church probably five times a year, Christmas, Holy week, my birthday. And I remember back in 19, I think 1995 a Baptist pastor came to share the gospel with me and even today I have that relationship with that pastor, his name is Pastor Willie Cruz, and in fact, whenever I go to the Philippines, I would preach for his congregation, so he has been the pastor of that church for over 30 years, because the Lord saved me in 1996 by God’s grace, and another pastor by the name of Pastor Bong Lug Tu, he discipled me. He was really the one who would spend time with me. I remember he would come and visit me at home, and we would jog, and he would pray for me, help me understand more the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and so when I, maybe this is a promotion, quick promotion of evangelism. Yeah, I wrote a book, which I entitled Every Christian Is an Evangelist: Biblical Motivations for Sharing the Gospel. I dedicated that book to those two ministers of the gospel, Pastor Willie Cruz, and then Pastor Bong Lugto. And so that was 1996 when the Lord converted me, and I remember having this realization that I basically wasted 16 years of my life, and I said, Lord, if it would please you, I want to serve you for the rest of my life. So, believe it or not, the next year, the following year, 1997 so I was a brand new Christian. I wanted to serve the Lord, and so I, I decided to attend a seminary, and I still remember when they interviewed me. One of the questions was, How are you going to finance your, your studies here, and I said, well, I don’t have money in my pocket, but I have faith in the Lord here in my pocket, and sure enough, the Lord provided, and so 2001 I was only 20 years old, turning 21 I graduated in a local church called me, extended a call, which I accepted, and so I started pastoring in 2001 before I turned 21 years old. So I’ve been serving now the Lord for 25 years, so this year marks my 25th in the ministry. Only by God’s grace.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Wow, congratulations!

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, thank you. And, like, what I mentioned, I was the first one to become a Christian in the family, and by God’s grace, my mom came to know the Lord Jesus Christ after my conversion, and I have a half brother from my mom, and he too eventually became a Christian. Now, my father, who originally came from Iran, but he left Iran in the 1970s he’s been in Australia now for 4040 plus years. I don’t think he’s a believer, and it’s really my, my prayer that someday he too will enjoy the blessing of salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. And I know nothing is impossible with the Lord, we will talk about family worship, and I want to encourage to those parents who might have the so-called prodigal sons and daughters, prodigal children, maybe they once grew up in the church, but they’ve left for some reason, and at the end of the day, we know that it is the Holy Spirit who will regenerate our dead souls. Salvation belongs to the Lord, and that happened to me when I grew up. There was no family worship, after all. I grew up in a broken family, and it’s not easy. My mom had to work hard to raise us, to provide for us, and I also lived in an environment where drugs were there, I actually to survive before my conversion, before the Lord saved me. I even entered Jueteng. Jueteng is a form of illegal gambling in the Philippines, but when the Lord saved me, I gave up that gambling. Of course, we know that it’s, it’s not something that Christians should, should do. It’s, it’s against God’s, God’s will as revealed in His word. But here I am right now, sitting right next to you as a token of God’s grace, and so if I may encourage to our viewers that at the end of the day it is the Lord who will save their children. Now, it doesn’t mean that they should not pray, they should, and we will talk more about talk about the use of family worship.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yep, wonderful. Well, thanks for sharing that. I appreciate that. It’s a wonderful story. So, I guess we fast forward 26 years or 25 years there. So, we’re sitting here today, we want to have you on because you had this Go and Teach conference, and you gave a speech there on family worship and the importance of it. So, we were chatting just before the show, we had Dr. Beeke on, and we kind of touched on this a little bit in that episode. So if the listeners are listening to this, you know, today in the future, they’ll, they may have checked that out. So we touched on that a little bit in that episode, but in this one we want to go a little bit deeper and really like dive into, like, okay, what is this concept of family worship, and why does it matter? Why is it called like, why do you, why is God call us to do this, and how is that different from just reading the Bible, or just, just praying after a meal? And while those are important, there’s, there’s more to it there. So, maybe we’ll just start from kind of where you started your talk at the beginning about this idea, the concept of family inside the church. Do you feel that we have a bit of a misunderstanding of, like, the importance of the family in the church, or how that kind of functions in relation to corporate worship and then family worship? Can you want to touch on that a little bit?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
When you say misunderstanding, what exactly do you have in mind?

Lucas Holtvluwer
Well, like, do we, I guess, do we think of worship as something that’s more done, like, outside of the family circle, and don’t think about it as, like, the family is almost like a mini church in some ways, and the not only the impact and the means of grace that can exist through family worship, and I’m sure we’ll touch on that as well, but just the opportunity that is there to praise and glorify God in our, in our family life as well. Like, it’s I think it’s easy, especially in our Western culture, and perhaps you can speak to that, coming from the Philippines, as well as kind of an outsider to that, and then coming into it, of how, like, we can really like bifurcate and separate. Separate our different portions of our life, right, and compartmentalize, and I think sometimes the worship in the family home, in the family aspect, doesn’t always get brought in there in the same way we think about it in church, so maybe just kind of speak to that about, like, okay, worship is not just for in church, you can also do it in a family context, why does that matter, and what’s important about that?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Thank you for clarifying that. I think it’s helpful too to realize that worship has basically three aspects. So, first of all, there is what we call personal, or closet, or private worship, that’s our personal worship with the Lord. You alone with the Lord. The Puritans would use the term closet, that’s like being inside the closet when no one sees you, but, but, but the Lord. So that’s very important, because the second aspect of worship is what we call family worship, and I think this is where we have the misunderstanding, especially with regard to worship. Sometimes we think that worship can only be done outside our family, thus we have the third aspect of worship, which is public worship, corporate worship, which we are very familiar with, because that’s what we do. If you are a believer, you go to church twice on Sunday. In our tradition, we have two services. I understand that there are many evangelical churches today that only worship once on Sunday, and that’s what we know when we think of worship, that’s good, and the Lord has commanded that, commanded us, do not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, but let us not forget too that there is what we call family worship or family altar, and I remember what John Chrysostom said, that we should treat our family as a little church, and that idea was carried on by the Protestant reformers, like Martin Luther, especially the Puritans, even Matthew Henry would also strongly say that our family is actually a little congregation. And why is it so? Well, because our family, our home, is not just a place where we eat, where we sleep, where we have that enjoyment that we can enjoy from the Lord all the blessings, but this is also a place of worship where there is a tent. One Puritan said there is also an altar where you can offer sacrifices to the Lord, and I think that’s where the misunderstanding comes, because a lot of us don’t think of our home as a place of worship, but it is, it is, and that’s why family worship is so crucial, because think about this, Lucas. Well, first I mentioned about the private worship, your personal worship with the Lord. If your personal relationship with God is weak, let’s say as a father, that will reflect your family worship will be affected by that, because really, family worship should be an outcome, natural overflow of what you are inside the closet, and then at the same time, if your family worship is weak, that will eventually affect the congregation. Yeah. public worship, and I’m afraid that one of the problems, Lucas, that we have nowadays, you know, we often complain, how come that the attendance is declining for public worship? A lot of families are no longer worshiping the Lord, children, they are not worshiping young people. They would rather go to a baseball game or watch a hockey game on Sunday than be in the house of the Lord. Why is it so? Well, really, it’s a reflection of what happened inside the house. Now, I’m not saying that that’s always always the case, but if our family worship is shallow, weak, what do we expect? We will also have a shallow, weak corporate public worship.

Lucas Holtvluwer
And you see that as a real, like, pressing need, especially in today’s society, like where things are at, because I would, I would say, like, even just in my experience growing up in Dutch Reform circles, yeah, like, there were consistent patterns of, you know, reading and praying at meal times, and some families would sing, like, if you go over to someone’s house on a Sunday, like, certain families would, certain wouldn’t, whatever, but this, like, when we had Dr. Beeke on, we were talking about this whole idea of, like, you go to a separate room, and like, you get the books out, and you do, yeah, you sing, and you read the Bible, and you discuss it, and you know it’s like a whole separate event, almost, right? Is that kind of what? How do you practice that in your home? What does that look like exactly?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, so my wife and I, we have five children, ages between four and 13, and what we do again, each family is unique, and sometimes, depending on the age, two of your children, so because we have five kids in the range is quite big, four to 13, so we have this practice where we make a rotation, we take turns as to who will open in prayer, so before we eat, let’s say my oldest daughter will open in in prayer, and then we eat, and then we go to our family room, the living room, and we have seven bibles, because five kids, plus myself, and then my wife, we have, we have seven bibles, and each one will have a bible, now of course, our four year old daughter cannot read yet, but it’s good for her to see, to observe, so we don’t expect her to read yet, but those who can, they should read, so we will take turns right now, we have been reading from the book of Exodus, so let’s say Exodus chapter 32 and each will read two verses. So I usually start, so I will start two verses, and then I guess this is my advantage too as a pastor. If there is something that I would like to stress underscore, I will pause, and then explain that to them. So, for instance, when we read about the Tabernacle, yeah, a lot of symbols there. Yes, so then you can, you can help them. Okay? Why do we have this? Because the goal also is that you look for Christ. Otherwise, when you just read and then give moral lessons, it will be moralistic and I think that’s one of my concerns, by the way, too. In many family worship today, it becomes moralistic, and by that I mean they simply read it. Let’s say if they read about the narrative or story about David and Goliath, so or Daniel and his three friends. Well, we want to be like Daniel, brave, courageous, and then you stop there, or like David, strong. Well, yeah, not really, but strong in the Lord, yeah, courageous, and we say to our children, you see, we need to be courageous like David, no, no, go beyond that story, look for Christ, and you can say that here, my child or my children, David really represents the Lord Jesus Christ, the greater David, who fought the greater Goliath, Satan. So you bring out of the text the Christology and pointing them to the cross and sharing the gospel, which the goal is really to share the gospel with our children, and another misconception, too. Sometimes we think, well, my, my child is already a believer. Praise the Lord for that. If your child is showing the marks of grace, but it doesn’t mean that your child, your believing child, does not need the gospel anymore, because Lucas, I cannot imagine my life without the gospel. I need the gospel every day, when I, when I sin, I need the gospel. I need forgiveness, I need Christ, I need His blood. When, when I am down, I need the encouragement rooted in the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. So that’s one thing that we need to do also as we lead our family in family devotion, and so we read, and then the next person will read two verses also, until we sometimes it doesn’t need to be long, so you play by ear also, sometimes the text or. The chapter will end naturally. There will be a division, and then you can pause there. You can say, “Okay, I think we can, we can stop here and then continue next time.” Let’s say, if you’re reading about the plagues, you may want to just read one plague or two plagues. Stop there and then after that you ask them what do you think, what can you learn from, from, from this passage, or better yet, where is Christ here? Where’s the gospel here? How can we use this, and then you help them to apply it practically. Oh, you know, between, between siblings, there is a fight, mini fight. You probably know that. You have.. how many siblings? Five siblings. Then, then, as parents, now.. and my wife is so good at this. Yeah. Then, then she will help me. Then, okay. Then, how.. how can we apply this? How can we use this if we are angry? Yeah, how can we use this if let’s say someone did this to you or that things like that. Again, let it come naturally from the text. Yeah, there are practical applications, but my point earlier, if all that we get are practical applications devoid of the gospel, then you will end up with moralism, and there’s no power there.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yeah, you need some heart behind it as well. You need the gospel.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
And then after that, we sing.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yes. Okay.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
So the one who opens in prayer will have the opportunity to pick a song, so we’re using the Trinity Salter hymnal, that the OPC and URC have produced. Excellent. What I like about that hymn book, you have psalms and then hymns together so in a good selection, really good selection of hymns, so we will sing one, and then I always speak the second. We sing two, and sometimes too, we just sing from memory. Let’s say, for the sake of our four year old daughter, we can, we can sing in the name of Jesus. In the name of Jesus, we have the victory, you know, something like that, or read your Bible, pray every day, sometimes with, with actions, yeah, and you grow, grow, grow, yeah, so that the little ones can, can relate to it, bring them into it, but at the same time you can sing hymns where the old ones can appreciate better than read your Bible. Sometimes, for some reason, you know that, yeah, as you’re entering the teenage year, you somehow feel embarrassed to read your Bible. And then we close in prayer. Yeah, we gathered the prayer request. Okay, do you have prayer requests now? Because they go to school, they, they will share something from the classroom. Please pray for my classmate, his dad is going to have surgery, or please, like one of our teachers, or not teachers, a librarian, she has cancer, Mrs. Chaytor. Okay, so the kids will say, Mrs. Chaytor, pray for Mrs. Chaytor always, every time, every time. To the point that if it is my turn and I’m coming near the end of my prayer, especially the youngest “Mrs. Chaytor”, it’s like, don’t forget that. Yeah, I hear you. Yes, I will get to Mrs. Chaytor. Yeah, yeah. So, probably 15 minutes by the time you, you’re done.

Lucas Holtvluwer
So there’s a kind of like four major parts. There’s the Bible reading, there’s like the explanation, looking for the gospel, Christology, yeah, and then there’s the singing, and then prayer,

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Okay, and so when you were putting together this whole go and teach conference, and then you wanted to speak on this issue, what kind of caused you to say, oh, like this is a really relevant topic that we need to talk about, like today, especially like, is it the whole, like, whatever, entertaining ourselves to death kind of thing, like what is distracting us, or how did this habit kind of get lost over the years? Because I know, like, HRC Church, like you guys draw from the Puritans, and kind of that whole tradition a lot too, and there’s lots of great things to learn from them as well, including this idea of family worship and trying to revive that and bring that back, but like historically, is that something you looked into at all? Like, oh, like, how did this practice kind of fade out, and why is it so important? I guess to bring it back in.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, it’s actually interesting. I think when you look at church history, even among the earlier church fathers, I mentioned the name John. Chrysostom, he was big when it comes to family altar, family worship. Yeah, he would say that our home is a little church, little congregation, and the Protestant reformers, John Calvin, Martin Luther would carry that idea, and especially the Puritans. And then, for some reason, when we reached the 18th century, the rise of evangelicalism, I think the focus shifted from family to personal, and that’s why…

Lucas Holtvluwer
It’s a whole like, expressive individualism.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
It’s interesting too, because even the hymnology hymns, you will see that, for instance, Charles Wesley, notice his hymns, very personal, Fanny Crosby, that thou, my God, should die for me. My, the me sort…

Lucas Holtvluwer
of the we in the us and all that.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
No, there’s nothing wrong about that. I’m not saying because they were also reacting to the cold dry spirituality of the Church of England, then in the 18th century, and we thank God for men like George Whitefield, Charles Wesley, Joseph Hart. I did my dissertation on Joseph Hart; he was one of contemporaries of George Whitfield, Charles Wesley, and he himself, Joseph Hart, wrote several hymns, 222 in total. You will probably recognize one of them, Come Ye Sinners, Poor and Needy.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Oh yeah. He wrote that one.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
He wrote that one. So he’s lesser known compared to other great hymn writers of the 18th century, but same, the focus was personal, and again, please don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong about that, but I think, too, as we moved forward to the 19th century, it became too personal, not familial, not the, not more family, so probably that contributed. I could be wrong, but that’s one of my observations in church history. And, of course, fast forward now, 20-first century, with the rise of media, cell phone. You know what’s sad, Lucas. I remember my wife and I with our children, we went to this restaurant, and I remember sitting right next to this family, where so the two kids and the parents, they were all holding their cell phones, and they were like this, there was no conversation around the table, so gently I said to my… I remember telling one of my children, I said, do you know this? Look, look at them. Yeah, because our kids, they’re excited to have their cell phones. Like, when can I have my cell phone? Not right now. You’re only 13 years old, or you’re only 11 years old. You need to wait, but look at that. Maybe those children were only maybe 10, 11, 12. They had their own cell phones. There was no conversation.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yeah, it’s not good.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
And, and you know, Lucas, to another problem. Actually, my wife, who is a teacher, told me about this when she was in British Columbia, so she went to Fraser Valley University, and there was a course where they, the teachers had to be aware of this, that they, need to teach their students how to interact somehow. Kids, they don’t know how to interact, they don’t know how to converse, they don’t know how to talk. Yeah, and why is it so well? First of all, each room has a television, so here you have a household, a family. If they have two children, three children, they have each will have his or her own bedroom, and there’s a television. They, they rarely eat together. Lucas, one child will eat in his own room, the other one in her own room. There is no fellowship around the table. And so, this is, by the way, so common in the world. Like, family worship is so rare. So rare. And I’m afraid that even within a Christian community, and yes, Reformed community, it’s becoming so rare too, and that’s why we want to, and I’m so glad that you’re taking the time to interview me about family worship, because it’s a crucial, a very crucial topic, because think about this, if our family is broken, what kind of society shall we expect to have? And when? Because a society is composed of families. When you, when you have weak, broken families, you will have a broken society. And when you have a broken society, you will have a broken nation. And unfortunately our politicians don’t see that problem, that we need to strengthen our families,

Lucas Holtvluwer
Or they come from a lot of broken families, probably.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, no, I did, like that’s why I started with emphasizing God’s grace, too, because at the end of the day, it’s the grace of the Lord that will change us, transform us, but let us not also forget that God is using this means for conversion to save our children and to transform our children to strengthen our family worship.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Well, you mentioned Joshua 24, “As for me, my house will serve the Lord”, as kind of like a key text in this regard, for sure. And I mean, I think this was a bit later on the outline, but I think it’s relevant to what we’re talking about right now, in terms of as reform folks, we don’t usually get into the language of like we choose to do this or we choose to that, right? We’re kind of like allergic, but like in that way, like, why is it so important to say, like, no. As for me, at my house, we will serve the Lord and make that distinct choice, yeah? Like, for you and your wife, maybe you could speak to your experience or what you’ve seen as a pastor in general, but I don’t know if we’ve, if we, and I say we, as like the collective reform, not like I’m speaking for them, necessarily, but just from in my own mind, maybe like thinking about that as like put your line in the sand, this is what we’re going to do, that’s kind of a new way of thinking, it’s more just like, oh, I’ve grown up in this, this is yes, this is how our family kind of operates, and these are the things we do, but being very explicit about it and creating some of these good habits around family worship, that’s yeah, that’s a key choice you make. So, when you were kind of putting together this talk and speaking about this and writing on this, how important was it to say, “Hey, like, put a line in the sand and say, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
It’s a resolution, Lucas, that we need to make you don’t make that on my behalf, that choice, that decision, you don’t decide for me as a father of my home, my household, I make that decision, and even if I’m the only father in the world that will do this, I will, by the grace of God, make that decision, that no matter what happens, like in the context of Joshua, and by the way, really, when, when we take that verse within, within its context, you will appreciate better, because prior to that, Joshua has just reminded God’s covenant people of what, what the Lord has done for them.

Lucas Holtvluwer
The whole history, yeah.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
The Lord has redeemed them from the land of Egypt, from bondage, slavery. The Lord has given them victory over their enemies, the Canaanites, Jebusites. The Lord has given them this promised land, a land flowing with milk and honey, and now Joshua is saying, now therefore choose you this day whom you will serve. In light of this, how can we not serve the Lord, like when we think of what God has done for us, when we think of what He has given to us. Now, of course, in the gospel, in the gospel, He has given us far better, far more better blessings than what the God’s covenant people experience that time because in the gospel the deliverance that we have is not just from the slavery bondage of Egypt or Pharaoh, but deliverance from the bondage of sin and bondage of Satan. We have that freedom, not freedom to sin, but freedom to worship. We have been set free. The Lord has given us that, that liberty to worship Him. The Lord has given us this promised land, now the Beulah land, the celestial city that awaits us someday, that we. Will be dwelling in the house of the Lord forever, and not to mention all the spiritual blessings that we have in Jesus, the blessing of justification, that in Christ we have been justified by faith in Him. We have the blessing of salvation, that we have life everlasting blessing of sanctification, that we are being conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ. Day by day, we have the blessing of spiritual adoption, that in Christ we have become the children of God. We belong to God’s family, and, and not to mention all the physical and material blessings that the Lord is is giving to us. That’s why, in our family, we do our family worship right after our supper. And so you have that natural way of reminding your children, children, the Lord has just blessed us with food. Are you aware that there are other children who are literally starving when we think of the children, for instance, in Gaza, I’ve seen a lot of videos, yeah, like they are starving, they need food, and, and we can say, my child, the Lord has just fed us, shall we not thank him, shall we not worship him as a family? Look at you. You have nice clothing. You live in a beautiful home. If it is cold outside, we have furnace. If it is hot outside, we have AC. You go to school, there is a school bus. You don’t need to walk, whereas some kids will have to walk for five kilometers just to get to school with an empty stomach, they have no food. You can go to school with snacks, you are so blessed. And when we like what one hymn writer says, count your blessings, name them one by one, and it will surprise you to what the Lord has done. You know, we are quick to count what we don’t have. Weare quick to count the afflictions and trials and problems, but the moment we pause Lucas, and think of all the blessings the Lord has given to us, then why shall we not choose to serve the Lord, to worship Him. This the least thing that we can do in return for what the Lord has given to us, to have our family worship, where all together we bow down before the Lord, kneel down and say, as a family…

Lucas Holtvluwer
Do it together.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
… “Lord, thank you so much. You have been so, so good to us.” I understand there will be a problem, affliction, cancer, loss, death in the family, and when you have that trial, it might not be easy to thank the Lord, but still, when we now focus on Christ and think of His suffering, His agony. Here you have Jesus, who cried out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? He suffered, He did not sin. Now I deserved to suffer Lucas because of my sin, but Jesus never sinned, and yet He took my sin. He died, and yes, there will be loss – a loss, God forbid you might lose your child. Now, my wife and I, we had two miscarriages. It was not easy. I remember crying like, like a baby, but God, the Father, lost His son too. His son died on the cross, and He can very well relate to us at that moment, and say, Lord, please help me, sustain me as a family, help us as a family, help us to say with Job, the Lord gave, the Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord, that’s family worship.

Lucas Holtvluwer
It’s there during the highs and during the lows. How did you? Well, I guess maybe how did you, or how do you continue to keep that spirit of thankfulness in your family worship and not let it shift into one of obligation and duty, and having it just become rote

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Again, once we do our family worship as an expression of our gratitude to the Lord, I think that will change the way we do it. So, in other words, if one of my children were to ask me, “Dad, why do we have to do this? Why do we need to have family devotion, few families on earth do this anyway.” Now, if I, if I say, well, it’s a good tradition, it’s our tradition, by the way. Well, that’s good, but it’s not really convincing.

Lucas Holtvluwer
No.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
If I say, well, you see, if we don’t do this, our elders will come in and maybe castigate me, especially I’m a pastor, I need to do this, set a good example. No, we can, we can give them a better reason, and the reason really is we’re doing this because of what Jesus has done for us at the cross of Calvary, this is our way of saying thank you as a family. So, family worship is really a thank you to Jesus for all that He has accomplished for us on the cross of Calvary. Now, our children may not understand it that way, and that’s why it’s so important that we again help them focus on Christ, because if, if the reason for having family worship is merely material, material, or financial, or physical, well, let’s worship the Lord, because the Lord has blessed us, the Lord has given us this food on the table. What if Lucas one day we come to the table and there’s no food on it? We’re blessed here in Canada, in North America, but think of other Christian families, let’s say in, in many countries in Africa, where there is really starvation. How can you, how can you worship the Lord when, when you’re so hungry? How can you worship the Lord when you don’t even know if you have food tomorrow. How can you worship the Lord if there is severe, intense persecution that you know that that any, any time one of the officials of the government will come and arrest you because of the gospel? It’s, it’s not easy, but again, if we do family worship because of Jesus, then we have always the reason to do it, and that’s really the reason, it’s Christ, and so I would, I would encourage parents, families that when we do it, give, give that reason to our children. We do it to say thank you to Jesus for what He has done for us. Because think about this, as the psalmist says, the Lord is good. The Lord is good, and He’s always good. And if we really believe that, then we always have a reason to thank him and praise him and worship him.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Amen to that. You talked earlier about the different areas that kind of correspond with each other, of personal devotion, and then you have family worship, of course, then the corporate worship within church and congregation, as a father, as a husband, as a leader in your home, how do you keep your personal devotional life strong, so that you have that overflow that can feed into, I mean, in your case also as a pastor, but obviously into the family worship, then into your church family as well.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Very good question. The key is to be consistent. Now, do I do it all the time? Of course not. There are times that, let’s say, as a pastor, let’s say you have a meeting, consistory meeting, elders meeting, and you have to go to bed late, sometimes 12 midnight, or something, something happens unexpectedly, or one of my children broke her two wrists. Emergency.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Oh, wow.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
So, I do my personal devotion in the morning, and yeah, it’s hard to wake up early in the morning, so I had to skip because of what happened, so I might do it later that day, but you want, you want to be consistent, but let’s set a time, so like in my case, if you don’t set a time, it will never happen. Likewith this interview.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yeah, we got a book it.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Exactly, exactly. And once you do it, it becomes a habit.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yep.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
You to the point that if you don’t do it, you know you’re missing something. Yeah, it’s like I go to the gym regularly and if I don’t go to the gym, my body misses it somehow. There, there is, something is missing. I know that I need to go to the gym. It’s the same with my personal devotion. I know that I need, I need to do it to spend time with the Lord. Now, there, there are dangers too, for us ministers of the gospel to substitute right sermon preparation, that that you now do this to replace your personal devotion.

Lucas Holtvluwer
That’s just part of your job.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yes, and I will discourage pastors for doing that. I think it’s sacred that we need to protect our personal devotion again. It doesn’t need to be long. Now, in my personal devotion, I pray for my children, obviously, and for my congregation also. I can, I can pray for this family, two families, or sometimes you have special requests that you remember. Again, I want to be realistic also, because easily you can spend time just praying. 30 minutes is too short if you want to pray for your members, and not to mention your friends and family members, so you need to say, okay, I need to focus on this time for just one family. I spend like five minutes, 10 minutes, and usually to for my prayer I use my passage, so if I read from Genesis, let’s say Genesis chapter seven, chapter eight, let’s say about Noah, then you use that in your, in your prayer, you thank God for the ark, for the Lord Jesus Christ, you use that as a basis, otherwise you develop a cliche. And I think that’s another thing also that we need to watch as fathers, that we develop cliche cliches, and, and our children will notice that. Yeah, so it’s good if your prayer is based on the passage that you, that you read for that devotion. So, yeah, I watch it, I watch my personal devotion, I fail, but I, I want to go back again.

Lucas Holtvluwer
If it’s a habit, give up, you know, you’re missing it, that’s that’s a good key point to take home for all.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Doesn’t need to be long.

Lucas Holtvluwer
But consistent.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, you know, Al Martin, he died recently, and he said in his, in his office, he had two chairs, one chair for his study and one for prayer, for his personal devotion. Well, I only had one chair, but I thought that that was a good way to make that distinction, that you have another chair that you use,

Lucas Holtvluwer
Your prayer chair.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
your prayer chair, your worship chair, right. Now, having said that, it should also be that whatever we do that day, whether you are a plumber, a doctor, or a nurse, or a builder, that you do what you do as an act of worship, and so in that case you worship the Lord every day, every single hour. For a mom, when, when you wake up in the middle of the night to change your baby’s diaper, when you do it for God’s glory, that’s an act of worship. So, right there, changing a diaper, you’re worshiping the Lord.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yep

Dr. Brian Najapfour
So yeah, we, we want to do everything for God’s glory. Start to finish of the day.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Agreed. What are some of these idols in our culture, specifically in family life, that we can kind of let get in the way of a habit of family worship, because, like, some of the objections you might hear to this would be I don’t have the time for it, or I wouldn’t know what to say, or isn’t, you know, reading the Bible and praying enough. Why do we have to go take these extra steps? Now, you talked about that last one a bit with the idea of gratitude and seeing what Christ has done for us, but what are some idols in our culture today that you see that are inhibiting us from taking the necessary steps to have a healthy regular practice of family worship?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Good question. So, generally speaking, an idol is anything that takes priority over over the Lord, it could be your sport, whatever it might be, hockey, hockey game, or basketball. I love basketball, but if basketball becomes my priority, more important. And then the Lord, then that becomes an idol, and I think the challenge too is that again, let’s, let’s be realistic now, so I’ll give you a realistic scenario of our family, so my daughter, she needs to practice piano, and that’s in the evening, so that’s Monday night, every other Monday night, so that that night she won’t be able to join our family devotion, and then my wife too, but I have to do it, so like my myself, and then the other four kids, now is that our preferred time for the practice? No, but that’s the only time that she could, she could practice the piano lesson. Yeah, the piano lesson. So, sometimes, sometimes we will, we will wait for her. Sometimes also, let’s say I have a meeting, let’s say consistent meeting, and then let’s say we happen to eat late that night, then the family worship will be shortened..

Lucas Holtvluwer
Expedited, yeah.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
But then I will say, love, that’s how I called my wife, yeah, love. I need to go, please just close in prayer without me. But that’s not ideal.

Lucas Holtvluwer
No,

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Sometimes too, my son, James, will practice baseball. Let’s say Saturday. They’re practicing, although I think after for four for four weeks every Saturday night, then after that I forgot exactly which day of the week, because I don’t like Saturday, because I protect my Saturday night for my sermon preparation, like final preparation for the Sunday, but anyway, so sometimes he has to go after supper, so then he will miss, but it’s not ideal. So, that can be a challenge, by the way, Lucas. So, we need to be careful, because if you do it regularly every day, then something is wrong, but if you do it, let’s say occasionally, and with the understanding that, okay, when you come back, we will still do it. You will join us. That’s another story. But I think what we’re seeing in many families is that, well, they will say they have no time for family worship, but in the meantime, the father has time to go out hunting for four days, he will be gone for four days, or five days. Yeah, he will even go to another province to look for elk or moose. And I have a problem with that, because if you, if you have time to hunt for five days, and you say to me you have no time for family devotion or fishing, they will be gone for two days, three days fishing, but no time for family devotion, that’s some something’s wrong right there.

Lucas Holtvluwer
It’s a misalignment.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yes, what is your priority? You’re right, or some people would say, well, I, we don’t have resources, you know, I can’t afford to buy that family worship Bible guide. Well, really, and you have money to buy cigarette or tools for fishing, which are more expensive than maybe tools for family devotion. Yeah, you need the Bible, and if you can afford to buy that guide, family worship Bible guide. So, I think the issue is priority. Is it really a priority? And it goes back to what Joshua said. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Choose you this day. We need to make a decision, because if we don’t, then the world will make a decision on behalf of our family, and we may not be aware that the world is catechizing our children. Do you actually think that when, let’s say, we watch a baseball game or hockey game, and during the break time, or before or after the game, they will, they will play a song. Do you actually think that our kids are not listening to those songs, the conversation that they over, that they overhear from other people attending?

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yeah.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
And the world is not neutral. The world has an agenda. The world will teach catechize our children, and we need to counter that. And sometimes we parents, we say, “Oh, what, what happened to my children? What, what have you done?” Sometimes you know, we ask that question to our children. Well, maybe we should ask the question, “What have I done?” As a parent, as a father, because maybe we have let them, we have surrendered our children to the world, and now the world is teaching them with things that are not according to the word of God, even having friends, right? So, if we don’t train our children, they have no weapons. Yeah, someone actually said one Puritan, and when you don’t have family devotion, family worship, it’s like having a house with no roof.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yeah.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
You’re open to dangers.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yep, yep, you’re not protected.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
You’re not protected, yeah.

Lucas Holtvluwer
But so, given your family circumstance, and you came from a family that was a broken family, and no Christians in that family, and you were able to come to Christ and become a pastor and lead the life you leave lead, rather, if someone were to critique that and say, well, you didn’t have family worship growing up and see what the Holy Spirit was able to do in your life, isn’t it all the Holy Spirit at the end of the day? How important is it to still take the time and effort to do family worship in light of the power of the Holy Spirit?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, so we believe that it is the Holy Spirit that will regenerate our children, will circumcise their hearts, will save them. Salvation belongs to the Lord. And yet the Holy Spirit, in His word, has given us the responsibility. Also, it is our holy obligation to raise our children in the ways of the Lord, in the fear of the Lord, and one of those ways that we can raise them in the fear of the Lord is through family devotion, and we should not neglect it, but use it, actually take, take advantage of this gift from the Lord, this blessing, it’s a blessing, and if let’s say one of our listeners, let’s say has not yet done this. It’s not too late.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yeah.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
You can start now, and that’s why going back to the Joshua passage, choose you this day. It speaks of urgency. Joshua did not say choose, choose you tomorrow or next week. No, right now today it’s so urgent. Why? Because time is of the essence. Our children, they grow fast.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Oh yeah.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Before you know it, they are out of our home, they are married, they live on their own. So, while we still have this opportunity, golden opportunity, let’s take advantage of this, let’s seize every opportunity that we have as parents to train them, to help them, to equip them, because we, they will not be forever living with us, they will be going to colleges, and guess what, some of their teachers, professors may not be Christians. How, if we don’t equip them, then how can they respond to challenges? So it is our responsibility to equip them, and we can use family worship. I dare say that family worship is really one of the most important things that a father can do for his family. Family worship.

Lucas Holtvluwer
I would agree. Yeah, it’s that daily, you’re just again bathing them in the gospel, right? And those, those regular routines of coming together as a family, I mean, you hear it even just in a more general social context of people lamenting the loss of eating dinner together, right, and just in the society kind of breaking down around us, and like you mentioned earlier, families eating in separate rooms and broken families, and that sort of thing, so it’s good to good to know that largely we have still retained that, I think, unless you’re seeing that as a trend, I feel like people still eat dinner together.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, of course. You know, in my experience, to having been a pastor for 25 years, I have not yet heard someone say to me, someone who is dying, I wish I had worked more, or I wish I had visited this place or that place. When there is a regret, oftentimes it is something like this. I wish I had spent more time with my family. Always like that. I wish I had spent more time with my family. I remember Lucas, one of my professors in the seminary. He said to me, and he said this when his two children were not attending church, were backsliding, they were backsliding. And he said to me, I wish I had prayed more for my children. That was his regret. I remember hearing that. I said, “this is my professor regretting.” You look at him as a godly professor, but he himself has this regret, and he thinks that he had not prayed more enough for his children. Now, of course, we think of God’s sovereignty, right? At the end of the day, if your children is not among God’s elect, they will not be saved, but we don’t use that as an excuse. We have the responsibility, and one of our responsibilities is to pray for our children, and part of our family worship is prayer.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yep, it’s a good reminder. You mentioned the hymn, I have decided to follow Jesus in your talk, and just how that’s an example of family leadership. Can you expand on that, and just kind of explain for our listeners what that’s like?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, so there is one version that says this is the story behind this hymn. I have decided to follow Jesus. Several years ago, many, many years ago, there was a family in, in India, I believe, northern part of India, and this family was living in, in a village known for headhunting, really, really terrible, terrible village, pagan, pagan village, but a missionary from the West came, and to make the story short, through this missionary, this family of that village in that I think North East India came to know the Lord Jesus Christ, and when the chief of that village found out about the conversion of this family, especially the conversion of the father. He, he pressured him, he wanted him to recant his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and he said, “If, if you don’t recant, we will kill, we will kill your wife.” And basically he said, “I have decided to follow Jesus, not turning back, not turning back.” And again the chief said, “Well, if, if you don’t really recant, we’re going to kill not only your wife, but all your children as well.” And he added, “the world behind me, the cross before me, no turning back, no turning back.” In other words, “I have made this decision. No matter what happens, whatever you do to me, I will not recount my faith in Christ, because I have made this resolution to follow Jesus, no matter what.” And by the grace of God, by the way, they killed his wife, and they also killed him, and even when he was one, one witness said that as they were persecuting, or they were about to kill this father, they kept hearing him say, “the world behind me, the cross before me, no turning back, no turning back”. Now the chief of that village was so touched by the testimony of this father that he declared, “I too will follow Jesus”, and by the grace of God that village turned to be Christian, that pagan village as amazing story. Now, of course, that’s a version I have a friend who challenged that. He’s a hymnologist, but anyway, if that was true, beautiful story, really. And this will also help us appreciate this hymn, because a lot of people, especially from a Reformed tradition, would not sing that hymn. I have decided to follow Jesus. I think because they associate that with decisionism, or is it Believism? That no, we don’t make a decision. Again, the idea of, you know, choosing, we react to that, we become allergic, but it’s a biblical expression that indeed we make, we need to make a choice. Yes, we believe in the doctrine of election, but to believe in Jesus is your choice. I can’t make that choice for you, Lucas. Yeah, through the spirit, it’s my choice that I have to make that I need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but of course in that context here you have a believer who is making a decision to follow Jesus. Now, so it’s really within the context of sanctification, and family worship should also be understood within the context of sanctification. In other words, we don’t do family worship to gain God’s favor. We don’t say, “Okay, children, let’s do this so that somehow in doing so God can save us.” No, there is no salvific power in family devotion, devotion, but God can use it in the context of sanctification to strengthen our faith. And, and also, God can use that if you have a child who is not yet a believer, as the child hears the gospel from that family worship. Then you pray that the Lord will use that for the conversion of your unbelieving child.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yep, it’s a, it’s a powerful means, means of grace, right?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Exactly.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yeah, 100% In the home where the husband is not the strongest in his faith, or is not a great leader, but the wife desires her husband to be so, and if, if a wife is listening to this podcast, or whatnot, and thinks that, yeah, we should kind of get this whole family worship thing going, and you know, Dr. Najapfour is making some great points here, and we need to really do this in our home, but doesn’t feel like her husband is able to lead her in that regard, or whatnot. What would you kind of say to a wife in that position to help foster some of these habits, even if the whole family’s not bought in, so to speak.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
So interestingly, you brought that up, that question. One of the attendees at the Gointage conference was a mother whose husband doesn’t want to have family worship at home, and so I said, “well, you do it, you do it, you lead it. If your husband will not do it, then you take the responsibility, and you pray that as you do that, your husband will be touched by it, will be convicted of his own sin”, because we should take lead, we fathers, that’s our primary role, not our wives, but if we’re not home, then the wives will take over the responsibility, that happens like in my case too, as a pastor, when I travel, if I speak at this conference. Sometimes I’ll be gone for three days, four days. Obviously, I can join my family for family worship. Now, does it mean that we then stop? No, they will continue. So, what we do if I’m at home, they will read a different passage, because we want to save the series. So, our goal is to read the entire Bible. I don’t know how long will it take us, but so be it. If it takes us five years, four years, I don’t know when. It’s okay. So then my wife will read another passage because we want to save the series. So, I would encourage that that wife to take the lead. Do it, do it, and pray to the Lord that eventually your husband will join you, will come to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. And sometimes to Lucas, I think I’ll give you an example. When I was in Michigan, I met this young man, well, not really young man, he was already in his late 20s, and he was married with kids, and I remember he said to me, “Pastor,” he said to me, “you know what really bothered me when I was growing up, I never heard my dad talk about spiritual things, I never heard my dad talk about the gospel. My dad would, we would have, quote unquote, our family worship, which simply means he would read, and that’s it, and then pray, that’s it. He would not expound it, elaborate it, nothing at all.” So he saw, he saw that as, as, as, as really a problem. Well, it’s good to have that. That’s as a blessing, because God could use the mere reading of His word for our conversion, but for him now as a father of his own children, he wants to also explain what they’ve read, and for him to do that, he needs to prepare, he needs to read, and that’s why the idea of family devotion to requires preparation, it has to be intentional, and we need to be prepared as well, which means that, well, as a father, if you, if you can watch a movie for two hours, or if you can watch a baseball game. Now, I remember someone invited me to watch a baseball game, went to the stadium to Toronto Blue Jays. First time, I would not do that when I was in Michigan, no idea about Blue Jays, but so I remember I had to leave three hours before the time.

Lucas Holtvluwer
It’s quite a commitment to get there. If you go through Toronto.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yes! I had to walk for 15 minutes, because of….

Lucas Holtvluwer
the take the train

Dr. Brian Najapfour
…station, yeah, train station, because we parked, we left my car, I forgot, not the older

Lucas Holtvluwer
At the older shot go station?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
No, somewhere here in Hamilton area, I think, and then what, oh yeah, Burlington station, yeah, so we left my car there to the train, yeah, and then the last stop, well, before the stadium, and then you still had to walk for 15, 10, 10 to 15 minutes, and then you had to be there before the time, before you know it, my whole day was gone just to watch this game,

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yeah

Dr. Brian Najapfour
One game, and I had to spend, because then the hot dogs and very expensive bottled water, so in my mind I said, “wow, it’s really commitment.” Then can we not do the same, right? Can we not commit to doing this family devotion? You spend 30 minutes to read in advance, if you, if you’re not confident where you, what you’re going to say, then read it in advance, and read commentaries. There are many commentaries that you can buy, read books that will help you develop your skill in family worship.

Lucas Holtvluwer
There’s so much information out there.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
So, there’s no really excuse now, Lucas. It has to be intentional,

Lucas Holtvluwer
it’s a mindset,

Dr. Brian Najapfour
A commitment.

Lucas Holtvluwer
yeah, and like, as a young man leading his family, too, like, it’s just, yeah, you see, like, I grew up with, with this sort of habit of family worship, but to, yeah, to think about it this intentionally, and to, to really, yeah, make sure it’s a priority is, is definitely a mindset shift, which, yeah, seeps in from the culture, you don’t realize it, but you have to, you really have to put your stake in the ground and be like we’re doing this, and like, or…

Dr. Brian Najapfour
It will never happen.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yeah, you’re not going to just find your way into it, it’s not a natural thing to do, right?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
And Lucas, to the more you do it, you get better, yeah of course, maybe your first, your first year, or first few months of doing it, don’t expect to be an expert right away, because even myself, I’m not an expert. You always learn, and what’s wonderful, too, your wife can help you. When you ask your children, they say things that I’ve never thought about. Oh, like it’s amazing to use in my sermon preparation, too. I said, “Oh, I’m going to use that idea, precious idea. And even when kids ask questions, like they ask you, “Okay, why did God create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? That’s not fair. Why, if God knew that Adam would sin, why did He create Adam? Why? Why? There is hell? You know those questions now. There are times when to be honest and say good question, and I don’t know the answer. Let me, let me study that, that subject. I’ll maybe, yeah, yeah, and be honest. And then that, that should make you excited. Yeah, excited to do that. Okay, I have an assignment. My child is asking me this question. I want to, I want to answer it. Yep, so we can learn. We can learn.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yeah. Well, it’s nice that your kids always start young and then you get older, right? So, like, I have a two year old and three year old, and it’s like, okay, you get some of the questions and you get it, you get a while to kind of grow in it, and as a teacher and explainer, and yeah, it’s a blessing that way, for sure, too. Okay, I feel like I don’t know for sure, but I’m guessing we’re running tighter on time, so we get in the old wrap-up symbol here. So I’ll hit you with a couple quicker ones to kind of end off. Yeah, I guess we kind of touched on this in terms of like people might object to the family worship to say, like, oh, this is too formulaic, and it’s just like, you know, you put these inputs in, you get these outputs out. Where’s the Holy Spirit in this? How do we.. how do you.. I guess keep that in mind when you’re doing your family worship, or when you’re pastoring other families to say, like, yes, put these habits in place, these are good habits, holy habits, even. They serve your sanctification in your sanctification process, but they are not the end all be all in themselves, either. Right? How do you kind of help people to kind of keep, keep both of those things in hand when they’re thinking about family worship, that it’s not this like easy formula, like your kids aren’t guaranteed to be saved, because you’re doing family worship, right? Yeah, how do you kind of guide people through that process?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
You just answered it on to the next. That will save us time.

Lucas Holtvluwer
That will save us time.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
It’s no guarantee. There’s no guarantee, not because you have family worship, doesn’t mean that all your children will be saved, but the Lord is pleased to use that means too, to save them. So,

Lucas Holtvluwer
And it’s a calling.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, it’s a calling, our responsibility, our duty. So we, we do it mindful that at the end of the day it is the Holy Spirit who will bless this, this means, and that’s why we prayed too. Yep, we pray before, we pray after. Lord, bless this family worship. If

Lucas Holtvluwer
If you had one closing thought, for maybe in particular, like for fathers in the home, a kind of a closing like charge to leave with them, what would that be?

Dr. Brian Najapfour
I would say maybe addressing those fathers who have not yet done family worship.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Yeah.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Do it now, don’t wait. Time is time is too short, and think about this too.

Lucas Holtvluwer
You only have a few years to train them,

Dr. Brian Najapfour
By the time they turn 18, they want to be independent, they might move, maybe go elsewhere for college, then you don’t have that opportunity anymore. So, basically, you have 18 years to train them, and if we think that, well, that’s a lot of years. No, that means 18 summers, only 18 summers. So do it now, and if let’s say you’re doing it, but like what we discussed, maybe you’re just reading, you’re not really elaborating, guiding your family. Then pray to the Lord and look for tools that can help you. There are many books, resources, reform book services, they can always ask them, do you have books on family worship that I can, I can use, learn, or podcast, something like this, a similar podcast, for sure. They can google online also how to, how do it. Listen to messages on Family Worship Sermon audio.com is a good resource.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Come to your conference.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, come to our conference. So, my point is that there’s no excuse. No, do it, do it now, and, and do it as an expression of your gratitude for what God has done to us, and for us, and in us, and through us in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Wonderful. Well, Dr. Najapfour, really appreciate your time on the podcast. It’s been a pleasure.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Lucas, and to our listeners. Thank

Lucas Holtvluwer
And to our listeners, thank you for listening along. And if you have any questions, comments, concerns, feel free to send them in, and maybe we’ll have you back one day again too.

Dr. Brian Najapfour
Wonderful, I’ll be delighted again.

Lucas Holtvluwer
Wonderful. Okay, it’s been real talk. We’ll catch you next time.

Closing
Thanks for tuning in to Real Talk. If this episode inspired you, please share it with a friend, so you can continue this conversation in your own life. We encourage you to send us your feedback, or let us know who you would like to hear on the podcast. You can email us at Real Talk at Performed perspective.ca This episode is produced by Tyler Vanderwood, Lucas Holtfleur, and Mariah Taminga in partnership with Performed Perspective. Until next time, keep having Real Talk.

William Boekestein wants to help young readers figure out how they can pick the right job, and like the good Reformed pastor that he is, he offers up three points…. or, rather, parts.

In Part 1, “Pondering Vocation,” he covers what work is, and the different reasons that Christians have to want to work, like providing for our family, serving others, and as a means of expressing our gratitude to God.

Part 2 gives us biblically-grounded tips on how we can start “Preparing for Your Vocation.” We need to make ourself valuable to an employer by fostering key character traits – honesty and respect for authority might seem bare minimums, but they can really set a Christian apart – and by developing specific marketable skills, like welding, framing, accounting, etc. The author encourages readers to be ambitious to make the most of the skills God has given you. And he reminds us also of the other vocations God has called us to, like parent, elder, friend, and more.

Then in Part 3, “Practicing Vocation,” we’re challenged to work hard, and reminded that God does give us a weekly Sabbath rest.

This is a solid primer, and could be a great tool for high schoolers, Grade 9 or 10, as they start planning for their post-school years. It’d be best used with a parent or teacher along for the ride.

If I were to pick a nit, it would be with a couple of the appendices – “Is my vocation compromised by sin?” and “Is Military a Good Option for Me?” – that raise important topics, but in what struck me as too cursory a manner. The military question, for example, raised some cautions about women in the armed forces, but didn’t even touch on the issue of women in combat roles. It’s one thing for women to serve in the armed forces when male and female differences are understood and appreciated, and another thing for women to serve in the military when the higher ups have started to pretend that men and women are interchangeable and want to have women leading the charge.

But this critique – not for what Rev. Boekestein said, but for what more I wish he had addressed – is indeed a nitpick, faulting his 154-page book for not being a dictionary-sized tome instead.

And he offers us some of that more I was after in his great conversation with Lucas Holtvlüwer in the Real Talk episode below, so be sure to check it out.

*****

What does it mean to be “woke”? What challenges does the “woke” world present to the Church, and especially for the younger members of the body? Real Talk’s Lucas Holtvlüwer recently sat down with Pastor Greg Bylsma to talk about the “world gone woke,” and other challenges for Christians today.

Rev. Bylsma developed a passion for evangelism as a teenager already, studying missions at Redeemer College, before becoming a theological student at Mid-America Reformed Seminary. He has served Living Water URC in Brantford, Ontario for the past thirteen years.

Being woke sounds good

In broad terms, Rev. Bylsma defined woke culture as the idea of becoming awakened to all the prejudices and discriminations that exist in the world, and newly alerted to the effects of these prejudices on the downtrodden. “When you become ‘woke,’ you begin to see all the aggressions and ‘micro aggressions’ (against minority groups, non-traditional sexual identities, or different viewpoints).”

And when you are woke, you will dedicate yourself to fighting this oppression, which exists whether or not others around you are woke enough to see it. The woke movement talks about “systemic racism” – prejudice against other beliefs and races that permeates all of our societal and governmental structures. The more woke one is, the more devoted one becomes to tearing down these structures and rebuilding a new world without prejudice or oppression.

Holtvlüwer noted that on the surface, this can sound good, and Rev. Bylsma agreed: of course we as Christians want to fight oppression and prejudice, and we must be opposed to all racism.

But the devil is in the details: when Satan and the world use what seems to be a righteous cause, to tear down the Judeo-Christian foundations of a society, the result is chaos where “everyone does what is right in his own eyes.”

How should we deal with the woke movement in the Church?

Rev. Bylsma recommended that Christians be very careful to examine what the underlying meanings are of slogans used by the woke movement: “’Love is love’ is not a statement we can stand behind because of what it has come to mean.” It means that all types of sexual love are acceptable and must be allowed, which of course is in contrast with Biblical teaching.

“We can’t fly the gay pride flag, because it symbolizes acceptance of homosexuality as not sinful,” he noted. One of the tools Rev. Bylsma recommended was the “New Reformation Catechism on Human Sexuality” written by Rev. Chris Gordon, which cuts through a lot of the confusion around sexuality and gender, using clear Biblical instruction.

At the same time, we want to recognize that all sinners are called to repentance, and people who are living a homosexual lifestyle are sinners that we should want to see saved to renewal in Christ. “We should be welcoming to LGBTQ people, we should want to preach the Gospel to them… But we can’t pretend that sin is OK,” the pastor explained.

Bylsma continued, “The Bible differentiates between one who is a sinner who is not a believer, and one who is a believer but continues in sin.” He referenced especially 1 Corinthians 5 where Paul differentiates between the sexually immoral, the greedy, and the swindlers who are of the world, from those continuing in sin who claim to be Christians – those who bear the name of brother.

“We are not to associate with those who claim to be Christians who also persist in sin and say that this is OK. We can and should walk away from those who persist in sin and claim to be Christ’s.”

Rev. Bylsma also noted that Paul puts sexual immorality on the same plane as greed and swindling – so it’s not the great sin; it’s just like greed, just like swindling. It is a sin like other sins.

But Christians who insist that being a practicing homosexual is OK, or that changing genders is acceptable, can’t be treated the same as one who is ignorant of the Bible.

“[If you’re] dealing with someone in your friend group, and they’re claiming to be gay, or a girl claiming to be a boy, and they say they’re a Christian, and there’s nothing wrong with what they’re doing… the Bible tells us in 1 Corinthians 5 that we should have nothing to do with that person.  First, we follow the rule of Matthew 18, but if they refuse to accept admonition, refuse to accept that this is sin, then we no longer have a relationship with that person.”

This is different from someone who is questioning their sexuality or questioning their gender.

“If they’re wrestling with these things, and they’re a friend, then we continue to talk with them. [We should steer] them towards good advice (a pastor, a parent, a Christian counselor)… Don’t shun them; keep them in your connections. Be a friend! You don’t have to be a Christian counselor. Especially young people should not think they need to be the counselor themselves…”

Let’s recognize that we all have areas in which we struggle with sin, especially sexual temptation. We should not excuse our own sinful tendencies. We all need Christ; we all need the same Savior.

What’s coming, and how to be prepared

Holtvlüwer wondered what might be coming next in terms of the woke movement, and how we can prepare for it.

“I don’t know what’s coming,” replied Rev. Bylsma.

“But Canada is moving ahead very fast with woke ideology. Faster than Europe for example. Friends from Holland recently said ‘We can’t believe how woke Canada is!’ In the U.S., there is strong pushback against the woke agenda (but that push) is not here in Canada.

“We may go into a greater time of persecution, where we can see the Church sanctified and purified. The Church will be tempted to compromise on what is called ‘non-essentials.’ The Church cannot do so, we must hold to God’s Word. If it means being shut down, going to meet underground, worshipping out in the fields, we must do so. We may see the Church split based on her stand for scriptural truth. Businesses may lose work, jobs, income, because they won’t support LGBQT agendas, won’t put the gay flags out. On the other hand, we could see a counter swing as people see what is coming and how far it’s gone (for example drag queens reading to children).”

God may give persecution, or a temporary stay – but either way, the Church’s response must be uncompromised allegiance to the gospel, and diligence and vigilance in making Christ known, and calling the nations to follow Him.

Real-life relationships

Rev. Bylsma is worried that so many people, in particular the young, are heavily influenced by social media and “electronic friends” as opposed to real, in-the-flesh friendships.

“The gospel deals with real people, real neighbors; gospel ministry is real people, getting to know your neighbors, speaking to people, hearing where they’re at. This whole Internet world destroys those connections. We need to teach our kids to have real relationships with real people. Away from artificial intelligence, away from virtual relationships, or following remote YouTube teachers.”

Holtvlüwer pointed out that many young people who are struggling with sexual identity are also spending time alone, researching things online, spending a lot of time under the influence of non-Christians. Positive, real-life friendships with fellow believers can go a long way in keeping one grounded in the foundations we have been taught at church, school and home.

Some conclusions

Holtvlüwer and Bylsma touched on other topics as well, including whether or not the Church should withdraw from the world in response to the anti-Christian culture around us. And they also addressed finding joy in suffering for the Name.

Ultimately, Rev. Bylsma finds the answers to the woke movement, and to an increasingly hostile world, to be the same as they always have been for Christians:

“The answers may be more basic, and more difficult, than we might assume. How do we prepare for what’s coming? Love the Lord, love His Word, love His Church, love the lost. No matter what guise the devil takes, the answers are always Christ.

“….How do we get through this? Reflect on 2 Timothy 3: ‘All of scripture is inspired by God, and is profitable, is edifying, to thoroughly equip the man of God for every good work’ – including today! Love the Word of God, study it honestly, take time to be with the Lord, take time to be in prayer, bring your kids to God in prayer, bring your lost neighbors to God in prayer, strive to be faithful in allowing the Spirit to talk to your heart and convict you of where you’re falling into sin. Pray the prayer of David (from Psalm 139): ‘Search me, oh God, and know my heart, try me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.’”

Byslsma concluded:

“Christ is always the Victor, He is always the King, He will never lose a sheep from His hand. Draw near to Him, love Him, love His Word. You don’t have to listen to a thousand podcasts, you don’t have to read a thousand books. Dig into the Scriptures, tackle this honestly, ask questions… Iron will sharpen iron, and the Lord will bless.

“[Satan] is a scary monster, but Christ has got His foot over (the devil’s) neck, and He’s about to stamp. Remember Romans 16: the Lord will soon crush the devil under your feet. Be humble, prayerful, and courageous, and bold as a lion, because the devil flees when we resist him… Stick to the basics and press on!”

*****

Lucas Holtvlüwer recently interviewed Dr. Eric Watkins to learn more about evangelism and church planting from one with a lot of experience and wisdom. Dr. Watkins is the pastor at the Harvest Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) in San Marcos, California and is also the director of the Center of Missions and Evangelism at Mid-America Reformed Seminary.

Dr. Watkins wasn’t raised in the church. Growing up in North Carolina, he was a troubled youth, particularly after his father left his mom when Eric was just twelve years old.

After college, Watkins was drifting around the country, following the band “The Grateful Dead,” when his sister lent him her Bible: “you’re going to be stuck for a few days on a bus, so take this…” Eric recalls that through His Word,

“God confronted me by His spirit, and convicted me that I was a sinner… and that Jesus was the Savior and had done for me what I could not do myself… I got on the bus a long-haired stinking deadhead, and I got off the bus a week later, longer-haired and stinkier, but converted!”

Dr. Watkins then began a long journey of learning more about the Lord, going to seminary, becoming Reformed, and teaching Bible classes at the same church where he now ministers in California. Becoming a pastor, Watkins helped plant a “daughter” OPC congregation in Orlando; seven years later he and his family moved to St. Augustine, Florida to start a “parachute church” – meaning that there was not yet an established core group, and one needed to “start from scratch.” By God’s grace, these two churches are still thriving today.

Capital “E” Evangelism and lowercase “e” evangelism

Watkins defines evangelism as:

“bringing the truth claims of the Gospel to bear upon the hearts of those that are outside the kingdom… where the objective content of the Gospel is made clear and people are called to faith and repentance in Christ.”

He further differentiates the general call of Christians to evangelize, from the specific calling by a church body for one to do the work of an (uppercase) Evangelist. “Like Paul says to Timothy, ‘Fulfill your ministry – do the work of an Evangelist,’ or when Paul says in Corinthians ‘Woe is me if I don’t preach the Gospel.’” In Watkins’ opinion, church planters in particular bear that warning to fulfill their duty to evangelize.

“Among the list of gifts that Christ gives to His Church in Ephesians 4 there’s a role for the gifting of the Spirit in the area of evangelism for people that are called to do particularly evangelistic ministry, and they literally live and sleep with that ‘woe is me if I don’t preach the Gospel.’ So that’s in a category of capital E Evangelism.

“Lower case ‘e’ evangelism is what the whole Church does. So, like in Acts 8, when the church is scattered, it says not simply those who were ordained like the apostles but men and women who were dispersed went about proclaiming the Gospel. To me that’s lowercase ‘e’ evangelism…. Even lay people in the Church in some fashion or another are called to walk wisely before the watching world, and even to engage them at times and opportunities that God will provide with the claims of the Gospel….

“There’s something important to be recognized in ministering not simply the Gospel to people, but also ministering the Gospel through people, and to help our members understand that they too have a role to play in the great commission, and the promotion of the life and the work of the Church. It may not be street corner preaching, or handing out tracts… but it is befriending the people that we have the opportunity to get to know that are outside the Church, wherever we’re able to meet them.”

Enough time for members old and new?

Holtvlüwer asked Dr. Watkins if there can be tension in the church when there is so much focus on reaching those outside the body, since there are also many needs among the current members. Watkins agreed that this can be difficult, and he advised that there should be clarity on what is required of the pastor and elders, best captured in written descriptions of their roles.

“For instance, it takes a certain number of hours a week to prepare a sermon; it takes a certain number of hours a week to visit the congregation, to do the bulletin, to meet with leaders, to disciple, and to do evangelism. So we have to decide what we think is important; we need to prioritize, and there needs to be not only transparency and accountability for the church planters, there also needs to be protectiveness for him and his family… It’s really important that you protect the time and space for the pastor to do evangelism… even after the church is up and running.”

Watkins continued:

“Visitation is very important in Reformed churches; I think regrettably evangelism isn’t, and we’ve created an unintentional… paradigm in which we have so busied our pastors that there’s no room for evangelism… There’s a lot of guilt on the shoulders of our pastors that [know] that this work really is important, and should be done, but I’ve got a 60 plus hour work week, with two sermons, and a congregation, and Consistory and Council meetings.”

Holtvlüwer suggested, “This might mean that you need to get a second pastor if your church is of a certain size.”

Do we expect the Holy Spirit to show up?

Talking about Reformed churches and evangelism, Watkins reminded listeners that John Calvin wrote his most famous books like The Institutes of the Christian Religion, as,

“…discipleship tools for new converts to the Reformation, and as a pastor he modeled and did evangelism. He housed orphans in his home, and what we could call seminary students whom he trained and taught the work of the ministry including evangelism…. Calvin is nicknamed the Theologian of the Spirit, and if you read his writings as they relate to evangelism, he wholeheartedly believed in it….

“Our problem at times is that we have too small a view of the Holy Spirit… We don’t expect (Him) to show up much, and to do great things in and through our church. Do we really expect God to convert people through the preaching of His word? Do we expect God to convert people off the streets, out of depravity and drug abuse and all the different things that are out there, into the arms of the church? Do we expect to see baptisms not just of kids but adults in our church? I think our Trinitarian theology could be enhanced and brought into greater conformity with Calvin’s view… that invigorated his ministry.”

Holtvlüwer wondered how or if Reformed churches had strayed from Calvin’s mission of being evangelistic in orientation. Watkins summarized that

“Part of the Church’s temptation in history has always been to isolate itself from the world rather than to engage. And yet with the best of intentions: because we don’t want our covenant kids to get swallowed up by the world. So what do we do? [We either] build high walls around them and insulate them from the world. The other [option] is to train and equip them to engage the world with the Gospel…. Do we simply teach kids to think about what’s wrong with the way the world thinks, or do we also teach them how to engage the world, not simply apologetically, but evangelistically.… Do we disciple with a view towards raising up people that will be able to contend for their faith in a 1 Peter 3 way or Colossians 4 way?”

Watkins also identified the opportunity for the younger generation of Reformed Christians.

“The world has come to the back door of the Church, and the front door, and is on either side of our house – it’s all around – the nations are all around us! What will we do with the… opportunities that God has placed before us in an increasingly diverse world. It’s an exciting time (for spreading the Gospel!)”

Christian schools and our covenant youth

Holtvlüwer mentioned that he is thankful for, and understanding of why our parents and grandparents spent so much energy and effort on establishing Christian schools, and that these institutions can still serve as a bulwark against the teachings of the world that are so prevalent all around us in social media and in the culture overall. But do we need to do more to prepare our kids to go out to the world with a strong apologetic viewpoint?

Watkins expressed thankfulness for Christian schools (his own children attend a Christian school in Escondido): “I’m not trying to change that paradigm at all!” At the same time:

“…social media has more access to our kids now than parents, pastors, and Sunday school teachers combined… the amount of time that kids are spending online in different media platforms (is huge)…”

What is the answer to all these potentially harmful influences? Watkins reminds listeners of the well-known Biblical verse,

“‘Train up a child in the way that he should go!’ That is, not simply protect and shelter him from all the things you never want him to hear or learn about… Parents and pastors must be the teachers, not the world… There’s a challenge to not simply reach the lost, there’s a challenge to keep our kids! There are a lot of kids that are drifting away from the church, for different reasons… and while there’s no silver bullet… I do believe in discipleship…”

Wakins continued: “An uncomfortable question we could ask would be,

‘Could a covenant kid graduate high school without ever seeing a parent or church leader share the Gospel with a non-Christian?’ …if the answer is yes, then think about what life looks like for them when they… go off somewhere else perhaps for college or a job. So we have to train our kids with not simply what’s wrong with the way the world thinks, but (train them) to engage the world evangelistically, in the hope that in doing so (we might) actually insulate our covenant kids the right way.”

Watkins wanted to emphasize that he appreciates the Reformed faith, and in no way wants to tear down the institutions that Reformed Christians have built.

“The Reformed faith is grand, as J. Gresham Machen said, and we have some of the most wonderful tools at our disposal… we do a great job in many ways raising our covenant kids. By God’s grace we have a wonderful doctrine of the Church, and what the world needs most… is for the church to be the church! To continue to be committed to the ordinary means of grace… to be committed to family worship, and at the same time… to use the tools for evangelism that are part of the Reformed faith.”

In the last part of their conversation, Holtvlüwer and Watkins discussed mentorship as a way for mature Christian men and women to provide leadership and guidance to younger people, both those new to the faith and those who have grown up in the church. Watkins ended his contributions with a call for “young men to consider a pastoral call in the ministry. We need pastors, we need church planters!”

The complete discussion between Holtvlüwer and Pastor Watkins can be found on all major podcast platforms – just search for “Real Talk Reformed Perspective,” episode 63. And you can watch it on YouTube below.

Ten years back, anyone who’d said that cultural forces already in play would soon have our public schools teaching boys can get pregnant… well, he would have been dismissed as a nut. What Jim Witteveen shares in his new book about an “open conspiracy” among the power-hungry will at first sound so outrageous as to be unbelievable too. But make no mistake, this is fact, not fiction.

Chapter by chapter, Pastor Witteveen highlights ideologies and organizations that would seem to have little in common: global warming catastrophists, sexual hedonists, the public school system, overpopulation proponents, evolutionists, Big Tech, and Big Government. They are united, though, in their arrogance that they know – and God does not – what is best for all the rest of us. While their utopias differ, the route forward is the same for them all: a quest for more and more power so they can implement their vision. And, as Witteveen details, these ideologies and organizations are grabbing hold of the reins of power.

If that was all he shared, this would be quite the devastating read, so thankfully, the conclusion is all about a way forward for God’s people that explores the many opportunities that exist to faithfully honor and obey our Lord as we contend with the forces marshaled against us. How in the world did we get here? will be a slap upside the head to the many sleepy Christians who haven’t yet recognized we are in a battle, and who consequently haven’t yet answered God’s call to go out and contend. Timely and much-needed, what Witteveen has given us is made all the more valuable for its brevity and accessibility – everyone should read this, and most everyone will be able to. Contact the author at Dan1132.com to pre-order.

For more on the book, check out Lucas Holtvluwer’s interview Pastor Witteveen in the latest Real Talk episode. Watch it below on YouTube, or find it on your favorite podcast platform at RealTalkPodcast.ca.

*****

This appeared in the March 2015 edition.

What does a Christian perspective look like when it comes to the relationship between faith, taxation, and the role of government? It’s a big question, and one I’ve been thinking on for many years in my role as a municipal councillor in the District of North Cowichan.

As with all things, we need to start this discussion with Scripture.

Pay to Caesar…

The fundamental Scriptural principle when it comes to taxes can be summed up in two words: “Pay them.” In Matthew 22, after referencing the “image” on a coin that was handed to him, Christ urged his followers to “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.”

It’s also worth noting the broader context here, which includes the notion that, since we are made in God’s image, we are also to “render unto God what is God’s.” In other words, since the coin had Caesar’s image on it, it should be given back to him, and equally, since people have God’s image stamped on them, they should give themselves in service to Him. Put another way, Christ didn’t get too bent out of shape about paying taxes to Caesar, but instead reserved His criticism for those who refused to pay proper homage to His Father.

But are all taxes fair? Are they all necessary and defensible? Of course not. Government, by its very nature, tends towards wastefulness, self-preservation, unwarranted bureaucracy, and empire-building. As someone who’s now spent two terms in elected office at the local government level, I can tell you that much of the problem goes to structures and presuppositions that are endemic to the way budgets are put together.

Budgeting 101

In the municipality where I am an alderman, our budgeting process was recently explained to us by our City Manager like this: “We (municipal staff) look at the things Council has told us they want to accomplish in the upcoming year, and then we determine the tax implications based on what that’s going to cost.”

This is the paradigm under which many (most?) municipal budgets are prepared. But it has serious tax implications, and I believe it to be fundamentally flawed. This certainly isn’t the way most people budget in their households. They don’t say: “This year, I want to go to Mexico, do a $30,000 renovation to my kitchen, and buy a new car. Now I just need to figure out where to get the money.” No. The common-sense way of budgeting – the way most responsible people run their lives and their households – is by saying: “What’s a reasonable expectation of my income this year?” Once they establish that, they say: “Now, what can I afford to do with that limited amount of money?” But there’s an understanding, right at the very outset, that the amount of money is limited.

Not so with government. There’s a perception that the taxpayer has a bottomless pocket. And this can – and often does – lead to indefensible tax increases.

Equally, there’s another side to the coin. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities did a study a few years ago to determine the ratio between municipal property taxes and taxes levied by other levels of government. The study found that, (excluding “transfers” of money from senior levels of government for infrastructure projects), municipal government across Canada collected just eight cents of every tax dollar handed over by Canadian taxpayers. With that eight percent of total taxes collected, local governments are expected to deal with responsibilities that include roads, water-supply systems, garbage collection, municipal sewer, recreation, policing/fire services and, in some jurisdictions, affordable housing, public health, and childcare. And that ratio has come down considerably in the last 50 years or so. It used to be in the range of 11 to 15 cents.

To be clear, the decline in the ratio isn’t necessarily because municipalities have become that much more efficient at service delivery. Rather, it’s a testimony to the proportionately increasing tax burden imposed by other levels of government, combined with the fact that 50 years ago, most local governments were in the throes of a huge infrastructure boom. Back in the 50’s and 60’s, everyone was putting in new roads, bridges, and municipal water and sewer systems. Those systems are now starting to wear out, and some are in dire need of replacement, which doesn’t bode well for future tax pressures at the local government level.

The $20-an-hour fry cook

But there are also historic inefficiencies in local government – inefficiencies which will take considerable political courage to correct. Labour contracts are a prime example. There is no faster way to get a municipal politician running for the exits than to suggest that the fundamentals of their staff’s union contracts need to be re-examined. Most of these contracts go back to when local government workers first got the right to “organize” – they are built on economic presuppositions which were prevalent in the 1970’s when there was no end in sight to the boom years, and everyone instinctively understood that a “COLA” (Cost of Living Allowance) Clause was an insult to the intelligence and industriousness of the workers.

In my jurisdiction, for example, this led to a situation where we had high school students coming in to work the concession stand at our local hockey arena. These kids were “on-call” – the minimum payment per their union contract was 4 hours, often for a shift which was considerably shorter than that. And, when all perks and benefits were considered, they were making close to $20 dollars an hour to flip burgers, a job that would be considered minimum wage in the private sector. It also created a situation where the “food services” division at that Recreation Centre was swimming in about $180,000 dollars of red ink every year.

But, because it was government, no one thought it necessary to correct the situation…or, at least, not until I took over the chairmanship of the board that runs the facility. Not to blow my own horn, but I told the rest of the board members that as chair, I would happily face the TV cameras – with a picket line behind me – to explain the facts of life to the taxpayers should the issue lead to a strike. The union folded like a house of soggy cards, and that concession stand is now run by a private operator.

All of which is to say that the matter of “taxation” can be complicated. My fundamental worry, though, is that many local government leaders are losing sight of their central responsibility to be “stewards” of the public purse. Instead, many of them make their tax-related decisions based on political agendas ranging the full gamut from extreme environmentalism to a rampant pro-development stance that cannot be sustained. Not to mention fear of retribution at the ballot box at the hands of those whose vested interests might be detrimentally affected by one decision or other.

As an aside, this brings to mind a quote that Ronald Reagan was fond of using – a quote originally attributed variously to Alexander de Tocqueville and Scottish historian Alexander Tytler:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse out of the public treasury. From that moment on the majority will always vote for the candidate promising the most benefits from the treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy.

Property rights

There are many other issues that could be discussed in the pursuit of a Christian perspective on (local) government. Let’s look at the one where civic politicians and staff expend most of their political capital and regulatory authority: land use.

Our municipality regulates all new development through a policy it calls “smart growth.” The idea is to encourage what’s called “in-fill” – making sure the areas that already have residential, industrial, or retail development on them are fully built out before new areas are explored for development.

On the surface, this makes sense. The infrastructure (roads, water, sewer services and the like), are already in place for those existing developments, and it certainly seems quite stewardly not to waste a bunch of money running these services into new areas when there’s still undeveloped potential in the existing “growth centres.” The problem, of course, is that this process necessarily involves drawing arbitrary lines on a map. And there are people with land just outside of these lines – sometimes literally across the street – who are ineligible to have their various expansion projects approved because of “smart growth.”

And while the policy may seem to make sense at first blush, I believe it has the potential to violate a basic biblical principle; the notion of private property rights. (If you have trouble with those “rights” as a biblical concept, simply ask yourself how the 8^th Commandment can forbid “stealing”? You can’t steal anything from anyone if they don’t have an inherent right to own it in the first place.) If we truly believe in property rights, landowners should have considerable freedom to do what they want with their property, as long as that freedom isn’t paid for through the general tax bills.

For example, we might be justified in charging a special development fee to hook into the sewer and water lines because a particular address is outside the proscribed growth boundaries. But to live and die by a policy against any development whatsoever on this land restricts the landowners’ freedom to enjoy (and profit from) his property, and minimizes his ability to exercise “dominion” over that land (Gen 1:28). So I would argue that if someone wants water or sewer services for a project that’s five, or six, or even twenty miles outside of the “growth boundaries,” they should have the option of tapping into that infrastructure…at their cost. Practically, of course, that cost would be so prohibitive as to make the development completely untenable, but the principle should stand on its own.

This issue provides an example of how governments should base their decision-making on commonly accepted (and Biblical) principles, rather than on a well-intentioned but arbitrary set of “rules” that are totally intransigent and often defy common sense.

Conclusion

We are often critical of our governments at all their levels, and we do have some reasons to be. But we should also consider what Romans 13 tells us about how we should respond to government, where it says:

…rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good.”

That principle, combined with repeated Scriptural injunctions to pray for leaders (I Tim. 2:1) and for the “peace of the city” (Jer. 29:7), should guide our actions as citizens, and our relationship with governments at all levels.

This is from the March 2015 issue, when Al Siebring had just been re-elected to a third term as Councillor in the District of North Cowichan, BC (pop. 30,000). That was followed up by a stint as mayor, after which he moved to Southern Alberta for a very different job: grandpa. Then, in the beginning of May, 2023, he had a chat with Real Talk’s Lucas Holtvlüwer, which you can watch below. You can also find this episode on your favorite podcasting platforms by clicking here.

It takes some courage to get into the public to show love for our neighbors, with a meal for an elderly person, taking part in a Life Chain, or helping at the local soup kitchen. Some may even take their children so they are exposed. But how would we feel about welcoming the public into our own homes to live with us temporarily?

A different sort of fostering

It was at a legal seminar in London, Ontario, about ten years ago, that I first heard of a movement called “safe families.” Jennifer Francis, a young woman at that seminar, was intent on launching the organization, modeled after Safe Families for Children in the USA. Not only has it taken off in Canada, members of the Reformed church community are helping it expand to new areas.

Safe Families exists to keep children safe and families together. As they describe on their website, they “temporarily host children and provide a network of support to families in crisis while they get back on their feet.” What sets them apart is that they do this outside of the government system. Yet their effectiveness has made them a go-to place for child welfare agencies, who regularly refer families to them, encouraging these families to make use of their care so that they don’t get into a crisis mode where the government needs to intervene.

“Instead of waiting for bad things to happen to children, we can step in to help,” they explain. “By design, child welfare systems are designed to react after something bad happens to a child. Such interventions can be necessary in cases of abuse and neglect, but we can help before bad things occur.” In the 20 years of their existence, the Safe Families movement has provided over 35,000 hostings, utilizing 25,000 volunteers and 4,500 churches, most of those in the US, UK, or Canada, with 93 percent of the children returning home.

The concept immediately struck a chord in my heart, as it provides an opportunity for Christ’s church to open our arms to vulnerable families and children in a way that is both practical and simple. Having witnessed the enormous sacrifice, and occasional heartache, of families who served within the government system as foster families, this appeared to be an option that would be far more doable for ordinary families.

God blessed that young woman’s vision and Safe Families was incorporated as a Canadian non-profit in 2012. Francis has since been faithfully leading the organization, first as the Executive Director, and now as the interim chair of the board. Safe Families started ministering to families in the Greater Toronto Area but has now spread to many cities across Canada.

Reformed folk seizing the opportunity to serve

When I was first introduced to the concept, I couldn’t help but consider the potential for the Reformed community in Canada to get on board, as we are blessed with so many solid families who would be able to provide temporary care to children in need, outside the foster system. Sure enough, quietly and humbly, some in the Reformed community have been getting involved with the new chapters that have been formed.

Most recently, a chapter is being formed in BC’s Lower Mainland. I reached out to Jessica Wildeboer, who is chairing the steering committee to form this new chapter and is a member of the Langley Canadian Reformed Church.

I asked her what sparked the idea of bringing a chapter to the Fraser Valley. She explained that she heard about the organization from her sister, who attended an information session in Edmonton, but she didn’t give it much thought until a friend sent her a link to the Real Talk podcast episode, where Lucas Holtvluwer and Tyler Vanderwoude sat down with Hildy Sloots from Safe Families last year.

“I rarely listen to podcasts at all, but somehow (God’s work) I found myself washing dishes while listening to it. I was hooked. I loved all that I heard” shared Wildeboer. And she didn’t stop there. “I knew this needed to happen here in the Lower Mainland. I sent an email to Safe Families and asked about a BC chapter. They replied saying that a Zoom meeting was coming up and I was welcome to join. This was in September. By November we had a steering committee established with nine Christians, from Vancouver to Chilliwack, and we started planning steps forward.”

Different ways to help

In February of this year, Jason Peters, the Western Canada Director of Safe Families, led three information sessions in the Fraser Valley. They were thrilled to have about 230 people come out, representing 25 different churches.
Three members of the steering committee shared with the audiences why they believed Safe Families was needed and important. “As chair, I shared my own experience of seeing my church rally around my family in times of crisis” Wildeboer explained. RCMP officer Steve Vandelft, and social worker Kathleen Vanderveen, also shared how in their work experience they would often see families who needed extra support.

Wildeboer explained that “We put out sign-up papers asking for people to express what areas they might be interested in helping with in the future. Different areas include being a resources friend (organize meals, pick up groceries, help with a reno), family friend (do some babysitting, offer encouragement), family coach (overseeing the volunteers surrounding the family in crisis), and host family (hosting children overnight in your home for short periods of time, sometimes weeks).”

The response was incredible. “After the three info sessions, we had so many people check so many boxes with wanting to help, and we even had 18 families sign up wanting to become a host family! Amazing!”

A Christian witness

What also sets Safe Families apart is their faith-based approach, “motivated by the compassion and grace that they first received from Jesus Christ.” And the beautiful thing is that instead of this closing doors to working with the child welfare system, they form a bridge between families who are in need and the Christian community.

“When a family in church is in crisis, meals are brought, babysitting is arranged, rides are organized, whatever is needed is provided,” shared Wildeboer. “But how do people without a church community survive when a crisis hits? Our churches seem rich with resources such as stable homes. How can we bless our community with our resources?”

She also liked that the service is local and hands-on. “I think there is also something precious and vital about being more intentional within our own communities. I like my kids to help with babysitting. I like my kids to help with making a meal and dropping it off. I like my kids to write cards to neighbours and hand-deliver them. Sometimes we can be too busy in our own safe comfortable bubble with people we know, but we could improve with meeting new people and warmly welcoming all those we meet. It is good to get uncomfortable, that’s what Jesus did.”

This is an overview of a recent episode of Lucas Holvlüwer and Tyler Vanderwoudes’ Real Talk podcast. Real Talk is a bi-weekly podcast of Reformed Perspective featuring great conversations on everything from propaganda to pornography, and if you haven’t checked it out already, you really should. And you really can, at www.RealTalkPodcast.ca.

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Is climate change real, and if so, how should Christians think about it? How should we take care of God’s creation in a way that still allows us to use its resources for the good of the crown of creation, mankind? Lucas Holtlüwer recently sat down with Dr. Calvin Beisner, founder and national spokesman for the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation (CornwallAlliance.org), to talk about these and other issues.

Dr. Beisner summarized the Cornwall Alliance’s work in a memorable tagline: “Our work is to defend the planet from the people who are trying to defend the planet.” More formally, it is a network of about 70 Christian theologians, natural scientists, economists, and other scholars educating for Biblical earth stewardship, economic development for the poor, and the proclamation and defense of the good news of salvation by God’s grace.

The climate is always changing

Beisner started with a summary of how the earth’s climate is constantly changing: daily of course, with high and low temperatures, seasonally each year, and also in decades-long cycles driven by different ocean tides and oscillations. Geologists are certain the earth was significantly warmer than today for a few thousand years prior to Christ’s birth, as well as during periods of the Roman empire, and of the Middle Ages. During multiple cooling periods over the last 2,000 years, glaciers have covered much of the world in ice before receding again over centuries.

“We’re in an ice age now, although most people don’t realize it, and that’s because Greenland is covered by ice for the most part, and Antarctica is covered also…. All of these [periods of cooling and warming] happened entirely naturally: there were no SUVs running around burning diesel, and so the human influence had essentially nothing to do with those.”

Beisner points to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change in 1992 as one of the first times that the phrase was re-defined to mean changes driven primarily by human activity, especially the emission of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.

Change, but not catastrophic

He believes that mankind’s activities do contribute to climate change, but to a very small degree, and that modern technology has an enormous net economic and life-sustaining benefit to human beings that is worth the relatively small effect on the climate.

Beisner made the case that the alarmist language and dire predictions of today’s environmentalists do not come from actual scientific climate studies, with their measured tones and scientific language. Rather, these reports are summarized by government bureaucratic appointees, and they tend to push more alarmist mentalities than the reports themselves.

“Crisis, danger, catastrophe, existential threat; [these terms are not in the reports. But they get added] by environmentalist activist organizations, and by the mainstream media, and by politicians because that’s the kind of language that can get people on board for spending trillions of dollars to solve a problem, whereas, if you speak in very measured moderate scientific terms, you won’t get that kind of support.”

Warring worldviews

Holtvlüwer asked if Christians in general were less worried about climate change because of the worldview of those who were sounding the alarm. Beisner agreed that non-Christian views such as pantheism, materialism, and animism are prevalent in the environmentalist movement, and contribute to the dangerous error warned about in Romans 1.

“When you deny the Creator, you begin to worship the creature instead of the Creator… You elevate the earth to the supreme concern… Paul tells us what happens when you do that. God gives you over to a reprobate mind, professing yourself to be wise you become a fool, and you fall into all kinds of different errors, both intellectual and moral… I think that’s a large part of why… there is a great deal of really shocking folly in much environmental thought.”

Seeing babies as blessings

From a Biblical perspective, we are called to “fill the earth and subdue it” (Genesis 1:28).

“Rather than seeing the earth as delicate, but nurturing, we see it as robust: very tough, very resilient, self correcting. But, dangerous, unless subdued, unless mastered, and that means that instead of trying to minimize our impact on the world, we don’t maximize it, but we optimize it… to enhance the fruitfulness and the beauty and the safety of the earth for human well-being as well as for the glory of God.”

Dr. Beisner pointed out that human deaths from natural catastrophes have actually dropped 95% in the last one hundred years – during the exact period that mankind’s impact on the climate is the greatest it has ever been. Why is this? Man’s prosperity and technological advances have allowed us to build safer homes and businesses, to heat and cool our dwellings, and to travel long distances in relative safety. So, rather than decry the slight impact we have had on the planet’s climate, we should encourage the development of greater wealth, of even safer structures, and of other means by which humans can live long and productive lives.

The current rate of warming, stated Beisner, is much lower than often portrayed, and may actually have positive effects on our ability to farm more efficiently in larger areas of the world:

“The benefits of this sort of warming are going to outweigh the risks! There may be some problems here and there, but I think it will be much less expensive to adapt to those than to try to control them.”

Bigger problems

“So should the church not be concerned about climate change, because there are bigger problems?” asked Holtvlüwer. Beisner believes that,

“there are going to be some problems that come with human-induced climate change, and that we should be aware of those, and we should be trying to deal with them by mitigation… or by adaptation.”

Beisner laid out some likely scenarios as sea levels and temperatures are likely to rise in the coming decades and centuries, but put these in the context of human adaptation as has been the case in the past. In short, there is nothing new under the sun, and part of our mandate as God’s creatures is to subdue the earth, to use its resources in a responsible manner as stewards of creation.

According to Beisner, the Cornwall Alliance does not advocate government subsidies for alternative energy sources such as wind and solar. Although there is a place for this type of energy use, the tax dollars of citizens are better used in the limited role that government should play, and the free market should be allowed to work out what energy sources are the most efficient and economical over time. “Nuclear, large-scale hydro, fossil fuels (such as) coal, oil and natural gas would far outstrip wind and solar not just now but for decades, possibly generations, to come.”

To dig deeper

Dr. Beisner also gave his opinion on the work and writings of Danish author Bjorn Lomborg, expressing his support for most of Lomborg’s views, but disagreeing with the responsibility of government to incentivize alternative energy sources. In the rest of the podcast, Holtvlüwer and Beisner also discussed the overall idea of environmental conservation, and touched on the situation faced by farmers in the Netherlands – who are dealing with new government restrictions on the use of vital fertilizers – along with their protests.

Overall, this is a very helpful podcast for Christians who wish to think Biblically and reasonably about climate change and environmentalism, and well worth the 90 minutes of listening. You may even find yourself rewinding and pausing, as you look up statistics and the Cornwall Alliance website for confirmation of the data and studies cited. Real Talk is published twice per month and can be found at ReformedPerspective.ca, RealTalkPodcast.ca, YouTube, and many podcasting platforms.

Listen to the whole 68 minute episode below. 

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The Oct. 10 episode of Real Talk was all about church unity. Hosts Lucas and Tyler were talking with a couple of pastors representing two denominations working towards being just one. Their guests were Rev. Steve Swets, pastor of the Rehoboth United Reformed Church (URC) in Hamilton, and Rev. Dick Wynia of Lincoln Canadian Reformed Church (CanRC). The conversation covered the history of both the CanRC and URC, as well as the current and potential future status of the two federations’ relationship.

Two pastors, three denominations

Both pastors were uniquely suited to the conversation. Rev. Wynia grew up as a member of a Christian Reformed Church (CRC) in St. Catharines, but studied at the Canadian Reformed Theological College in Hamilton, prior to being ordained in Aylmer CRC in 1987. He then helped to lead a Calgary congregation out of the CRC federation and (eventually) into the newly formed URC federation. And for the past fourteen years, Rev. Wynia has served at Vineyard CanRC in Lincoln. With his experience serving churches in three different federations, he brought a unique perspective to the conversation.

Rev. Swets calls himself “an American serving in Canada”: he was a minister at Abbotsford (BC) URC for over seven years, prior to taking the call to Rehoboth URC. Rev. Swets grew up in the south Chicago area, and as a teenager, was part of a church split out of the CRC that resulted in the formation of a new URC. Rev. Swets is the secretary of the United Reformed Churches’ Committee for Ecumenical Relations and Church Unity, and has preached in many Canadian Reformed churches over the years too.

A little history to start

To begin, Rev. Wynia gave a general outline of the history of how and why the Canadian Reformed Churches were founded, with a helpful explanation of the main reasons that many immigrants from the Netherlands who were members of the “liberated” churches, could not find themselves at home long term in the CRC congregations, nor in the Protestant Reformed Churches they found in Canada.

(The CRC had not taken much interest in the church split that had happened in the Netherlands in 1944, with “liberated” churches on the one side, and the GKN church federation they’d been driven out of on the other. But by not taking a side, the CRC effectively supported the GKN. In addition, church leaders in the CRC did not want to bring any of the controversy from the Netherlands into churches in North America, and did not want immigrants to speak about these issues. But such a restriction couldn’t be acceptable to “liberated” believers – they couldn’t be somewhere where they weren’t allowed to talk about the stand they’d thought so important they’d taken it at the cost of friendships and family relationships too..)

Prof. K. Schilder, one of the leaders of the “liberation” had warm regard for the Protestant Reformed Churches (PR), so some of the “liberated” immigrants formed PR churches in Hamilton and Chatham, Ontario shortly after arriving in Canada. However, the PR Synod of 1950 required that their churches subscribe to a specific view of the covenant. This restriction on covenantal views was the very reason the “liberated” members had left the GKN, and so they could not live with a condition like this after their significant struggles in the Netherlands.

After this CanRC history lesson, Rev. Swets summarized how the United Reformed Churches came to be founded. They were begun largely by former members of the CRC who disagreed with that denomination’s views and decisions on the authority of the Bible:

“It really came to a head around 1995, when the CRC opened all the church offices to women… and there were issues of theistic evolution, and practicing homosexuals in good standing in the church. There were a lot of peripheral issues but really what it came down to is the Scripture.”

As Rev. Swets explained, by making the Scriptures and Biblical teaching limited to the culture or time of Paul or Moses (as the CRC was doing),

“you start to undermine the authority of the Scriptures: The Bible does not actually say what it means… all of a sudden you’ve kind of knocked the foundation out of the authority of Scripture. I’d say that is the real reason why these churches left the CRC.”

Rev. Wynia also recalled the controversies regarding the teaching of Calvin College professors like Harold Dekker, who denied limited atonement, and Howard VanTil, who held to theistic evolution. They held views that were not Biblical but which were being tolerated.

Why didn’t CRC exiles join the CanRC in the 90s?

Holtvlüwer asked if those who left CRCs in Canada during this period considered joining with the Canadian Reformed Churches.

Rev. Swets answered that although he wasn’t involved personally at that time, his understanding was that

“the URC needed to be established, and we needed to figure out who we were…. Dr. DeJong, and Dr. VanDam’s advice (to us) was to get ourselves established first, and then we’ll meet… and we can figure out a way forward of how we can become one that makes sense… So the advice was to become your own federation first.”

Rev. Wynia recalled asking Dr. Jelle Faber, his former professor from the CanRC seminary, for advice:

“I remember as a pastor in Calgary saying, ‘What do I advise my congregation to do; you know, there’s a true church in Calgary: should we start a new church, or should I say to (our members) that we are obliged to go there?’ And (Faber) said, ‘You have to be the shepherd of your sheep; if you advise them (to join the CanRC in Calgary), they will scatter, and this way [starting an independent congregation] you hold them together.’”

Some of the history of personal relationships and acquaintances was also a factor in the new federation forming. Rev. Wynia remembered that “at that time, you would have had members who remembered the Liberation (in the Netherlands), and… that was a bitter thing… I mean, they had their conflicts in the Netherlands, and to some degree in Canada, and they remembered.”

The group also discussed the impression that especially twenty-five years ago, some CanRC members would have considered their federation the only true church. While this was never an official position of the federation, enough CanRC members may have defended that idea to make former CRC members hesitant about getting together. Rev. Wynia brought up the counterpoint that whenever this issue was raised at the level of consistories talking to one another, the issue was quickly dealt with. As one CanRC consistory put it to Rev. Wynia, “If we didn’t think you were true churches, we wouldn’t be talking to one another.”

“There’s a lot of personal issues (in the past), and the pastors and leadership knew this,” said Rev. Swets. Some of these issues, dating back to the 1950s were still, in 1995, remembered by older church-goers. But not any more, 25 years later. As all four gentlemen could agree, there is excellent cooperation today between churches from the two federations.

Three obstacles to unifying

In 2001, the two federations accepted one another as “sister churches,” and there were some fairly aggressive timelines proposed for an official joining together. These discussions stalled for a variety of reasons (including a lack of enthusiasm from many of the URCs in the United States). The three main obstacles seemed to be:

1. a Proposed Joint Church Order which neither federation could entirely accept,
2. the issue of federational or independent theological seminaries for the training of ministers,
3. and a non-theological issue that still is close to members’ hearts – what songbook could be used in the worship services.

This last issue highlights a difference in the decision-making process within each federation. The URCs overall prefer that a matter like which songs may be sung in worship services would remain within the purview of the local elders.

While agreeing that Christ’s authority rests with local elders in local churches, the CanRCs have traditionally decided many things together at their General Synods. Rev. Swets stated, “There is a perception from the URC that the Canadian Reformed (church order) is too hierarchical, and that Synod has too much authority; Synod says too much.” With the URC’s history, coming out of the CRC denomination where the problems started at the top, this is a particularly understandable concern.

We have grown closer

The first half of the podcast might have had listeners believing that there is no foreseeable path towards unity for these two church federations. However, much of the second half of the podcast highlighted the progress that has been made over time. In Canada especially, there’s all sorts of cooperation between churches: in education, in mission work like Streetlight Ministries in Hamilton, and in recognition of one another.

In 2016, the URC took a six-year hiatus from further unity talks with the CanRC. But this year, in the URC Synod Niagara 2022, unity efforts will resume. The Synod will hear reports from the URC Committee for Ecumenical Relations and Church Unity, including the results of a survey that the committee put out to each URC. (This podcast was recorded about a month before Synod Niagara took place.) The results of this survey suggest that a small majority of the 58 URCs that responded are in favor of federational unity with the CanRC.

As might have been expected, a higher percentage of the Canadian URCs are in favor, while less than half of the American URCs responded positively. Only eight of the churches surveyed indicated they had any “theological concerns” regarding a potential union. One of the theological concerns brought up is the fact that the CanRCs have not made a federational statement on the Federal Vision movement, although professors from the Canadian Reformed Theological Seminary have participated in meetings and forums to explain the CanRC view of the covenant, and of the Federal Vision.

Looking further at the survey, Rev. Swets pointed out that “Twenty-eight of the 58 churches said they perceive the Canadian Reformed to have a hierarchy.” He personally disagreed with this perception, and stated that the URCs could also be perceived as having structures that are hierarchical. “We actually have a Stated Clerk of the URC; we elect him every Synod… he’s an employee of the URC.”

Rev. Wynia reminded the group that both federations “have some diversity of views when it comes right down to it… Professor Schilder, before the Liberation in Holland, would say that he could live in the same church federation as Kuyper, (despite their) different views of the covenant. We can tolerate theological divergencies. There’s an acceptable range that we would judge as within the bounds of the confessions and live with those differences.”

Rev. Swets shared one possible route to unity, by the CanRCs accepting the URC church order:

“Since the URC church order is broader than the Canadian Reformed, the Canadian Reformed church order can fit within the URC church order… The way that would work is that you would have to introduce regional synods into the URCs, or have the seminary under the oversight of, for example, Regional Synod Canada, and therefore it still has church jurisdiction, still has professors appointed by and overseen by a church ecclesiastical body. That would be the fastest way forward that… If you did that, nothing would have to change in the life of a Canadian Reformed Church: you aren’t forced to have the Trinity Psalter Hymnal if you don’t want, it’s up to each church. You can keep the Book of Praise… Whereas if the URCs become Canadian Reformed, we’d have to throw away our Trinity Psalter Hymnal for corporate worship, and we’d have to sing out of the Book of Praise… There would have to be more changes for the URCs to become Canadian Reformed, whereas in practice there wouldn’t be changes for the Canadian Reformed to become URC. The things you’d have to change are behind the scenes, like the oversight of the seminary, and how does superannuation work for ministers, but in the life (of the average member) nothing would have to particularly change.”

In his concluding remarks, Rev. Swets said, “When you talk about church unity, there’s a lot of issues to deal with. But at the very foundation of all unity is that it has to be given by the Holy Spirit. It can be frustrating because it takes time; you have to be patient in it, and pray, pray the Holy Spirit will work in this way…” Rev. Wynia expressed thankfulness for the unity that the two federations do have already, and for the progress made so far, in these discussions together.

Readers who would like to listen to more are encouraged to download the 90-minute podcast at www.RealTalkPodcast.ca, or watch the video version below.

This is an overview of an episode of Lucas Holvlüwer and Tyler Vanderwoudes’ Real Talk podcast. Real Talk is a podcast of Reformed Perspective featuring great conversations on everything from propaganda to mental health, and if you haven’t checked it out already, you really should. And you really can, at www.RealTalkPodcast.ca.

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On this, their 50^th episode, Real Talk’s Lucas and Tyler invited filmmakers Jake Valk and John-Michael Bout to talk about pornography, its devastating effects on Christians, and how the Lord’s people can fight against this terrible pervasive sin.

Bout began by describing in a very real and personal way his own decade-long struggle with pornography – the feelings of guilt at what he knew was sinful, difficulties with anger brought on by his own hypocrisy, and his gradual drift away from the Lord with a conscience made dull over time. Bout described how grateful he is that God led other Christians on his path who had turned away from porn by the Lord’s grace, and dedicated themselves to helping others with this pervasive, insidious sin.

A providential conversation

So what made the two of them think about creating a documentary? Jake Valk shared a story of having coffee with Christian author Tim Challies, whose book Sexual Detox was of great help. Not (yet) knowing that Valk was a filmmaker, Challies wondered if books were the best means to address the problem of pornography: wouldn’t video be a better medium to reach those caught up in that cycle?

This suggestion fanned a spark into a flame: why not make a documentary that would inspire people to take the steps to get out of the grip of pornography? And that is just what Valk and Bout did. Their new film, to be called Into the Light introduces six speakers with expertise in Christian responses to porn, not just in understanding that porn is sinful and wrong, but with real and practical suggestions for how to stop sinful habits, from the perspective of both those struggling with the sin, and those trying to help “the struggler.”

Valk explained:

“(One of our speakers) is Deepak Reju; he wrote the book Rescue Plan. He and Jonathan Holmes wrote a pair of books that are really good. One of the things he talks about is the philosophy of locking down a phone: how to cut off all access, and he walks you through that process from the vantage point of someone who is struggling with porn, but also if you’re helping someone who is struggling, and understand how they would be tempted to get out of the full lockdown of a phone, and so you can be extra alert to make sure that you really are shutting down a device for all it’s worth.  So you can kind of take everything that our speakers talk about in the film from two different angles – the struggler, and the (one helping the struggler).”

Valk and Bout want the film to be made available for no cost to churches, organizations, and individuals, to be a resource to as many people as possible. To make this work, they’ve been fundraising through a Christian crowdfunding site with a target of $85,000. You can find out how to donate at their page GiveSendGo.com/IntoTheLight, and you can watch the trailer below.

It’s not about stopping the bad, but embracing the One Who is Good

Bout emphasized that freeing people from porn is not the end goal: the real goal is to help people find Jesus Christ, and to have Him be the foundation of their new life.

“There are other methods to get free from pornography that don’t involve God – there are many secular programs… but if you get free of porn and still lose your soul, what’s the point?”

Valk stated emphatically that a documentary can never take the place of a program like Life Renewal, with accountability, personal connections, and a thorough teaching program.

“Life Renewal is way better than what we can make. 100 percent! Life Renewal is so thorough; they really walk through the process and do it over a year. That’s way better than this!”

But there’s also a place for a film like Into the Light to help get conversations started, and to push a struggling sinner to seek help through a program like Life Renewal and other Christian resources.

“If you find this film, and you’re uncovering sin, and you’re bringing it into the light, and you’re really building your relationship with God, and you want to go to something like Life Renewal which will take you way, way deeper, please do! They do a phenomenal job.”

First, stop the bleeding

So what else is in the film? Bout summarized a section that deals with “triage”

“Deepak Reju gets into the radical practical measures of cutting off access (to porn)… if you walked into a hospital with an open wound, you’re not going to be getting asked ‘oh, so what are your symptoms, what are some things you need?’ The first thing they do is they take you in and stitch up the gaping bleeding wound so that they can have the healing take place, and to use that analogy, when you’re dealing with pornography it’s not legalism to say we have to start by cutting off access… cutting off total access.”

Valk remembered asking one of the speakers, Heath Lambert, when it was OK to introduce the internet or social media back into someone’s life.

“Heath gave a really thoughtful response to that, a large part of it being that you’re not necessarily the best person to make that choice, so having good community in your life saying, hey brother, you know it’s been two months since you last fell into pornography, you’re displaying good devotional habits, you’re really walking with the Lord, I can see that in your life. If you enjoy Instagram, I think it’s reasonable you can have it back, let’s see how that goes… So other people in your life can give you an opportunity to have a better perspective.”

Bout followed up on his own story:

“There are a lot of things that I cut out, and there’s (just) a couple of things I’ve reintroduced back. I never had to go as radical as going to a flip phone – actually, that may have been a good thing to do; I really respect people who do that. So for myself, I’ve actually kept most of the (guards) that I put in place, and just because I know I would so much rather live with the inconvenience than deal with the temptation or the potential relapse.”

What about relapse?

Speaker Ellen Mary Dykas is highlighted in one of the chapters in the film called “Endurance,” dealing with the reality of sinners struggling with a relapse, or a step backwards. Bout stated that it is very rare that one is able to “change instantly, although that is not beyond the Lord’s power. Your inadequacies, your failures do not mean that God is not able or willing to change you.” Valk summarized some of what Dykas taught:

“Your identity is not your track record. You are not your success last week, your success yesterday, the pattern of sin… even if you do really well, that’s still not your identity. Your identity has to be as a Christian, as a loved, cherished child of God, because that’s where you find your root in fighting in the first place.”

The last section of the film is presented by Garrett Kell, and reminds viewers of the hope that we have in Jesus’ saving work. Valk summarized: No matter what our sinful tendencies are today,

“one day all of this sin, that darkness, like what you did last night, all that’s going to be gone if you’re a Christian… God’s going to do away with this sin nature that we have, and that’s going to be incredible, and then there’s going to be (forever) of being porn free… I won’t have to shed another tear, an angry, frustrated tear (at my sins)… There is hope beyond this (life) where there are no tears anymore!”

You can download this and other episodes of “Real Talk” at www.RealTalkPodcast.ca, on your favorite podcast app, or through the ReformedPerspective.ca home page. You can also watch the YouTube version of the 50th episode below. For more information on “Into the Light,” go to IntoTheLightDocumentary.com. 

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Lucas Holtvlüwer: Define Critical Race Theory (CRT) for our listeners, and maybe give a couple of examples of where it’s infiltrated our society.

Samuel Sey: Critical Race Theory is very complex, intentionally. Many people call it Marxist, and some Critical Race theorists would deny that but it really is a version of Marxism, a newer version of Marxism. So, I’ll explain Marxism first in a very brief way.

Marxism, basically, is the idea that there is an essential conflict between groups in society, and these groups are the bourgeoisie, or you would say the privileged class of rich people, versus the proletariat, being the poor lower class. That’s the idea.

There’s a book called From Class to Race, by one of the founders of Critical Race Theory, Charles W. Mills. What he says is, Karl Marx was right that there is a conflict in society, a conflict that has been plaguing society from the very beginning and is still ongoing today, until there is a revolution. But what this author says is, Marx was right about there being a conflict; what he was wrong about is what the conflict was really about.

Marx said it was an economic or class struggle. Critical Race Theory says, it’s a racial struggle – it’s really between white people and black, white people versus non-white people. That is really what Critical Race Theory is about.

And it also says, in very post-modern thinking, is that Western society, especially Canada, is built by white people for white people. So even the values that we think are impartial – things like freedom, rights, impartiality, our legal system, our schools, our government, our churches, all the things we think are impartial – they’re designed by white people for white people, as a way to marginalize and oppress non-white people. That’s what Critical Race Theory is, in a very general, brief way.

The implication is that white people – unless they are fighting against the systems and the culture – are racist. If you want to abolish the system, then you are anti-racist; if you’re not for revolution, then you are a racist by nature.

In terms of examples, I don’t know if you guys know about this, but last year around Black History Month, I was invited to a school in Alberta to speak about racism. But, I guess they didn’t Google me. They did not read any of my articles, so they thought, I guess, that I was going to be teaching Critical Race Theory. They didn’t know that I was going to be actually speaking against Critical Race views.

Tyler Vanderwoude: Oops!

Samuel Sey: That’s a big oops indeed. I was actually fairly tame. I didn’t want to shock them. The title of the speech was “What is racism?” and I was defining racism biblically as partiality (Acts 10:34-35, Gal. 3:28, Lev. 19:15). Racism is simply partiality against someone because of their skin color. Or to use a more broad definition, racism is bias against anyone because of their skin color, therefore you can be racist against black people, white people, Asian people, brown people, indigenous people, it doesn’t matter.

Then I said – and this is a key part that became controversial – if racism means partiality, then systemic racism means systemic partiality. What that means is if someone claims Canada is systemically racist then they need to identify a policy or a law from the government that shows partiality or a bias against black people. Systematic racism is shown, not by outcomes, not by disparities but by clear favoritism against black people. I asked if they could find a single such law or policy in Canada. They could not find a single one. So that was it. I leave. Then a few weeks later the school wrote a public letter denouncing me for denigrating students, for denying racism, for sharing racist views, essentially calling me a racist. Now the one thing they didn’t do was mention my name. Everyone knew who they were talking about – people from the talk at the school knew they were referring to me. But I guess if they mentioned my name, someone would Google me and they would realize that, wait a minute, this guy’s black! Which probably doesn’t jive with what they’re saying.

That’s one example where, by simply defining racism through biblical theology, they deem that I’m racist because I am protecting the white supremacist definition, in their mind, of racism.

Another example: I think it was in the Durham region here in Ontario you had the school board [Editor: it was a local bargaining unit of the teacher’s union] giving non-white teachers more weight in their votes, because they believe that non-white people are oppressed and are marginalized in society. They, therefore, need to compensate for that by making their votes count more than the white person, which is, of course, racism.

But that’s an example of critical Race Theory.

There’s many more. The federal government has given – I’m forgetting what they call this project – but there’s a project from the federal government that gives black businesses more funding because they’re black, because, again, they live in a racist society, they have more barriers, therefore they need more help from the government.

Lucas Holtvlüwer: The tricky part about Critical Race Theory is that, perhaps there are grains of truth to some of the claims. There has been, obviously, discrimination in the past, there are disparities today, and people find themselves in different situations. And often you can categorize that, generally speaking, certain demographic groups based on race are in better or worse positions, financially speaking. So, I guess what I would ask is, is Critical Race Theory just a tool that people can use to look at the world, and sort through disparities, and figure out why disparities exist, or is there more of a theological, more of a worldview at play behind it?

Samuel Sey: Critical Race theorists claim it is “just a tool,” or what they call an analytic tool. But I think they’re not being honest. I also don’t mind them calling it that.

It clearly is a worldview – they see Western society, or Canada, or white people, as being a certain way. They have a definition for what is injustice or what is just. They’re not simply analyzing things. They are claiming good and evil, righteous and evil. They have a theological view as to what is right or wrong, what should be punished and what shouldn’t be. Through that worldview, they analyze the world. That is true for every worldview – every worldview is analytical by nature. So yes, they analyze things, but fundamentally CRT is a theology.

They have, what I like to call, their own past and future. We say that through Adam all humanity became sinners. We know that there’s no distinction between Jew or Greek, or black or white; we are all fallen people. The problem is Critical Race theorists would essentially say white people, since they have more power, are more evil or more “sinful“ than non-white people. That’s why they oftentimes say only white people can be racist, because white people have power and other people don’t. So they have a different theological understanding of sin.

And they also have their own future, in the sense that they have their own heaven which is really a socialist or communist utopia. The key word in Critical Race Theory is “equity.” They really believe that we can have equity, which basically means “equality of outcome” – that you can have all non-white people and all white people having an equal outcome. According to the most prominent political race theory scholar today, Ibram X. Kendi, the only way – and he’s kind of right about this – to produce equity is to discriminate. He actually says this very openly. He says that the remedy for past discrimination is present or future discrimination. That’s also because in his book How To Be An Anti-racist – which I call How To Be A Racist because the book is all about racism – he says that racial discrimination is only wrong if it leads to inequity, but it’s good if it leads to equity. That means it’s okay to be racist against white people, it’s okay to discriminate against a white person if it will lead to equality of outcome between all people. So it’s okay to bring white people down so that you can make them equal with all groups.

It never works out that way, of course. There are always going to be people who have more power than others. But just like communists, now and in the past, Critical Race theorists will be the ones on top and everybody else, including black people will be at the bottom.

Lucas Holtvluwer: I think the one topic that trips up a lot of folks, especially white folks is this idea of “white privilege” because I feel like there is some truth to it. There are differences in outcomes more so certainly in America, but still as you pointed out in previous interviews, also in Canada there’s is quite the disparity. Can you talk to folks about what this idea of white privilege is, how they can understand it, if there’s some truth there, how to navigate the truth, and separate out the truth from the Critical Race Theory

Samuel Sey: ….White Canadians generally are more wealthy than black Canadians. As to the reason why, I wrote an article, maybe three years ago now, addressing this topic. I compared the numbers in America, the UK, and Canada when it comes to the disparities between white people and black people in these three nations.

My point is this: these three nations have very different histories concerning slavery, segregation, and racism. All three nations have experienced racism against black people, for sure, throughout their history, but all three nations have very varying degrees of this racism. And yet the numbers comparing white people and black people in these nations are very similar when it comes to wealth, crime, education, and basically everything else.

My point is, if we would claim the reason for this is because of the legacy of slavery or racism, how can you make that claim when, again, you have identical outcomes but with very different histories. It makes no sense.

My explanation – which is proven because this is the common denominator between all three nations – is fatherlessness. I grew up without a dad in the home so I know this personally. Long story short, my father left my mom before I was born. It meant that since my father wasn’t home my mom was never home either because she had to work two jobs. When she was then working two jobs I had no one teaching me discipline, therefore I became a very violent kid. I was in 25 fights before I became a Christian at 19. When I said 25 fights I mean 25 fistfights. …..My mom is an incredible mother but it’s very hard to take care of a child when you are the only parent in the home.

I mention that because single parenthood is the norm for a lot of black people. Here is the issue: in America 75% of black children are raised in a household with no father. 75%. The number for white people it’s 25%. That’s a 50% gap.

That is the real issue there when it comes to disparities. It is a known fact that children raised without their fathers in the home leads to more crime, more sexual activity, poorer education, poor discipline, which creates, of course, a lot of the disparities that we already know. In Canada, the numbers are pretty similar as well. That is the issue that no one talks about when it comes to white privilege.

So if someone says to me there’s white privilege, I don’t like that term because it’s based on Critical Race Theory and I will reject it. But what I will say is this: if a white person is more privileged than a black person, generally it’s because they have more access to their father which leads to more privilege and prosperity in the home and in culture.

Listen to the whole episode below.